ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!

[SpaceGhost 0]

We need RAA to sponsor a prominant and winning sporting clays shooter.

Edited January 27, 2011 by SpaceGhost

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

  On 1/27/2011 at 9:51 PM, physicsnerd said:

  On 1/27/2011 at 9:48 PM, Jim Digriz said:

It looks to me from the study that the chances of the Saiga 12 being designated a Destructive Device are about zero, but that there is a distinct danger that they will prohibit it from importation at some point.

 

If they try, K-Var will call Harry Reid and everything will be OK.

phuckayvarnreid....

Edited January 27, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[aslyguy 5]

  On 1/27/2011 at 11:09 PM, frick said:

You folks better start thinking like bureaucratic Nazis.

 

Because if the writing on the wall for a ban on convertable Saigas isn't in there, I don't know what else is.

 

Hell, In my reading of this, insertion of a 6 round magazine makes the shotgun non sporting, let alone every other US made product intended for a Saiga, front grips with rail mounts, light mounts, pistol grips, altered parts for the fire control group, etc.

 

Hence, a Saiga imported that can no longer accept US made magazines, or factory High Caps, as in the Saiga Rifles that have no feed ramp built in, and require a special low cap mags, or worse, no mags at all, if they are too easily unsporterized.

 

I remember when some of you fuckers got on my ass for "Fricked" up conversions, that do not move the trigger group, and my MAIN response was that WHEN they made non sporting Saigas illegal, or registerable, ten minutes, and a 5 round mag and I was compliant.

 

That TIME is going to COME, and I can't wait to see you guys facing registration, destruction, or burial of your permanently converted guns. I hope you kept your original parts, and didn't weld up the pin holes.

 

If you haven't figured it out yet, the BATF is only there to seperate YOU from YOUR GUNS, using "Reasonable" gun control laws, and never, NEVER, EVER there to expand the horizons of guns available to people that aren't SOLDIERS or COPS!

 

Welcome to the world of second class citizens, too stupid to take care of themselves, or to own things that they deem as too dangerous.

 

 

I don't think so it would be illegal to import yes once it is 922 compliant its us parts not imported parts plus they even stated in thier that they have made the exception for detachable mag

Edited January 27, 2011 by aslyguy

[Kosh 1]

Wow lucky for me I sold all my Saigas last year...

[harleypap 1]

How many parts do you need to be 922 on a stock saiga 12 ?

[frick 3]

Sporting is sporting, only if there are no options to make it non sporting after importation, how much of a leap is needed if one action, IE, insertion of a mag, makes said sporting shotgun a no no.

 

A pistol grip Saiga, with a 20 round drum is the same gun as a USAS 12, why they haven't been declared a DD by now, is beyond me, the proliferation of even more evil items, such as high cap drums ARE going to add to the cry to do so, why do think it was so prominently featured in the report.

 

And, this is all about timing.

 

Shooting in AR, high cap mag, brain dead politician(from the shooting, and those not shot included as well), and there is going to be a sacrificial lamb, in this case, its going to be evil imported shotguns.

 

Unlike most BATF reports, which end with, "So, a shoestring IS a machinegun", and are less than a page, this one surprised me at how in depth it went into the history of how and why, cheap guns, and scary guns, have no sporting use.

 

Well chronicled for a reason?

 

Either they are getting a whole lot more thorough, or they are taking the time to build a case to make a whole buncha stuff non sporting.

Edited January 27, 2011 by frick

[frick 3]

I have just read the entire thing again, and I have a 2nd take.

 

Start on page 10 and closely read 4)in reference to magazines.

 

They make a particular point of building a case that high cap mags have no hunting purpose, no sporting purpose, and of no use, except for Po PO and the Military.

 

This may be all about the end to domestic production of high cap mags for non sporting shotguns.

[harleypap 1]

By stock i mean non converted just tapco stock an forarm.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

  On 1/27/2011 at 11:54 PM, frick said:

A pistol grip Saiga, with a 20 round drum is the same gun as a USAS 12, why they haven't been declared a DD by now, is beyond me, the proliferation of even more evil items, such as high cap drums ARE going to add to the cry to do so, why do think it was so prominently featured in the report.

 

 

Importability. Say it with me ....IM PORT A BIL I TY. Look at the title of the study.

[aslyguy 5]

they also state earlier that detachable magazines were a common exception with rifles and again this is with importation not us made components

 

 

illegal to import not make on us soil

Edited January 28, 2011 by aslyguy

[sharkbit 109]

I'm guessing they are going to make them illegal to import based on their ability to accept a hi-cap mag. So maybe IZHMASH can weld a magazine lock in place that can be ground off later. I don't know, but definitely seeing some scary stuff building, and seeing the MD drum in there is not good.

[jimdigriz 580]

  On 1/27/2011 at 11:09 PM, frick said:

I remember when some of you fuckers got on my ass for "Fricked" up conversions, that do not move the trigger group, and my MAIN response was that WHEN they made non sporting Saigas illegal, or registerable, ten minutes, and a 5 round mag and I was compliant.

 

There's no evidence of anything approaching this in the study.

[frick 3]

"There's no evidence of anything approaching this in the study. "

 

Nope, sure isnt.

 

And there was no instant registration of the StreetSweeper or Striker 12s after the import ban on the USAS12.

 

IF the case can be made for non importation, as was done first to all of those above guns, then the case to declare them a DD is a much easier step, as WAS done above with all three of the guns eventually.

 

The camels nose under the tent...typical anti strategy.

 

And, a good step towards a complete ban on high cap mags altogether, as they clearly mention the previous study focused only on rifles and how bad high caps were with them.

 

As I read it, for the third time.

 

They are basically repeating the import rules as they stand now, why such a dedicated report just to reiterate what we already know?

[Mullet Man 2,114]

The difference is none of those were IMPORTED (there is that damn word again) in a "sporting" configuration. They all met alot of the 'evil criteria' that the ATF spells out as non-sporting in this recent study. The Saiga does not fit in any of those categories in its imported (damn again with that word) configuration.

[frick 3]

The us made versions of the SS and Striker 12 were declared DD's regardless of whether they were imported or not. But the first step was denying importation of the design.

 

There is also mention of weapons based upon machine guns, in regards to AW's. Its on page 4.

 

Technically the Saiga is derived from the AK, take it from there.

 

Also, bayo lugs on the imported 1897's are going to be gone.

 

 

 

Edit after 5th reading.

 

Slow absorbtion with age, but heres what I glean.

 

1)Past history justifying all aspects of "Sporting" restrictions.

 

2)Why AW's were what they are, and why they shouldn't be imported.

 

3)A new list of items(10) that make guns non sporting.

 

4)Round capacity, exhibit 2, showing state laws that prevent use of 5 rounds or more in a hunting gun.

 

5)Whole buncha a pics that make a gun bad, lights, mounts, foregrips, and drum mags specifically featuring the SAIGA.

 

 

Conclusion?

 

Guns are bad.

 

Guns that look bad are bad.

 

Guns that look like bad military guns are bad.

 

Guns that look like bad military guns, with big military magazines are bad.

 

Saigas are guns that look like bad military guns, with big military magazines, and no matter how sporting they are when they come in, they are still bad.

 

 

My apologies to Mr. Mackey, I already know Drugs are Bad, Mmmmkay.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2011 by frick

[bigmegina 3]

Frick

 

+1

[Bridis 319]

1. I'm offering to buy any one of you paranoid, conspiracy theory having wack job's S-12 for $400.00, before the (put on your tinfoil hats) ATF deams them D.D.

2. I'm willing to bet any of you well respectable numbnuts your pay checks that the S-12's ability to be imported is not affected.

3. I'll offer the same bet to anyone who wants to take it regarding mag capacity restrictions.

 

Lets put your money where your crazyness is. LOL.

 

Well?

[frick 3]

1) The value of SS's, Strikers, etc, has not risen appreciably after becoming DD's, that said, the worst thing is registration, if thats the case, and the inherent problems with future transfer. So value shouldn't be an issue, future availability is, and that WILL drive prices up, not down.

 

Whats to bet on.

 

2 and 3, far less likely, I'm sure you could find somewhere in Vegas if you feel like pursuing it.

Edited January 28, 2011 by frick

[Stansplace 414]

Crazy, tinfoil hat, whatever, the whole damn thing makes me sick to my stomach. Again, the 2A doesn't mention sporting purposes anywhere.

 

And why do the police and military get the exemptions? Couldn't the same bad guys they are up against come against me and mine?

 

I could go on and on about the whole damn camel in the tent situation we as Americans are facing, instead I think I'll go throw up now.

[G O B 3,516]

WHO authorized the expenditure of money on this in these hard times, AND WHY ARE THEY STILL EMPLOYED? A HUGE waste of tax dollars!

[aslyguy 5]

I could try to explain the difference to you of the s12 and the aa12's and such but i dont know if you will understand the difference in them

 

more to the point if they are going to make s12's dds then it will be all of them not just converted ones so you better sell now so you don't have to deal with it

 

they would have to change rulings on all firearms to consider the mag on the s12 unsporting its 5 rounds in imported sporter models

 

the s12 is under size requirements

 

the only thing it has against it is that it has a detachable mag again they have made plenty of exceptions on importing firearms with mags

 

no us law keeps us from using high capacity mags so if they were going to change that they would change that for everything not just saigas or shotguns

[mscottrogers 56]

  On 1/28/2011 at 12:09 AM, Mullet Man said:

  On 1/27/2011 at 11:54 PM, frick said:

A pistol grip Saiga, with a 20 round drum is the same gun as a USAS 12, why they haven't been declared a DD by now, is beyond me, the proliferation of even more evil items, such as high cap drums ARE going to add to the cry to do so, why do think it was so prominently featured in the report.

 

 

Importability. Say it with me ....IM PORT A BIL I TY. Look at the title of the study.

 

Yes you are right we can not import anything above 5 rounds for a shotgun mag, this study is saying the entire shotgun is now considered non sporting because it will take a US mag above 5 rounds, that is why the MD20 is pictured. Yes the MD20 can still be made and yes we can still convert but they will change the importability of the shotgun.

 

 

below states that they will consider that practical shooting (3 GUN) may be a sport but.......will not consider it in this study

 

 

While the number of members reported for USPSA is similar to the membership for other

shotgun shooting organizations,6 the working group ultimately determined that it was not

appropriate to use this shotgun study to determine whether practical shooting is "sporting" under

§ 925(d)(3). A change in ATF's position on practical shooting has potential implications for rifle

and handgun classifications as well. Therefore, the working group believes that a more thorough

and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting as a generally

recognized sporting purpose.

 

below states how congress got worried about how shotguns were, at the time, all considered to be sporting, so they did another study,,,,,,

 

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART

 

this study found that military shotguns were converted to sporting condition and imported, so the study looked specifically at that......

 

 

The 1998 study was conducted after "members of Congress and others expressed concern that

rifles being imported were essentially the same as semiautomatic assault rifles previously

determined to be nonimportable" under the 1989 study.24 Specifically, many firearms found to

be nonimportable under the 1989 study were later modified to meet the standards outlined in the

study. These firearms were then legally imported into the country under section 925(d)(3). ATF

commissioned the 1998 study on the sporting suitability of semiautomatic rifles to address

concerns regarding these modified firearms

 

 

so we get here

 

 

The 1998 study identified the firearms in question and determined that the rifles shared an

important feature—the ability to accept a large capacity magazine that was originally designed

for military firearms. The report then referred to such rifles as Large Capacity Military

Magazine rifles or "LCMM rifles."25

 

which brings the next point.. you tubing mag dumps killed us

 

The study noted that after 1989, ATF refused to allow importation of firearms that had any of the

identified non-sporting features, but made an exception for firearms that possessed only a

detachable magazine. Relying on the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, the 1998 study noted that

Congress "sent a strong signal that firearms with the ability to expel large amounts of

ammunition quickly are not sporting."26 The study concluded by adopting the standards set forth

in the 1989 study and by reiterating the previous determination that large capacity magazines are

a military feature that bar firearms from importation under section 925(d)(3).

 

So this is the new study by the MAN

 

To conduct this study, the working group reviewed current shooting sports and the sporting

suitability of common shotguns and shotgun features. At the outset, the working group

recognized the importance of acknowledging the inherent differences between rifles, handguns

and shotguns.

 

and this which defines sporting shotguns

 

The 1989 and 1998 studies examined particular features and made sporting suitability

determinations based on the generally accepted sporting purposes of rifles. These studies served

as useful references because, in recent years, manufacturers have produced shotguns with

features traditionally found only on rifles. These features are typically used by military or law

enforcement personnel and provide little or no advantage to sportsmen.

 

They started to grow a brain here

 

As stated above, Congress recognized the

difficulty in legislating a fixed meaning and therefore gave the Attorney General the

responsibility to make such determinations. As a result, the working group did not simply accept

the proposition that sporting events were limited to hunting and traditional trap and skeet target

shooting. In determining whether an activity is now generally accepted as a sporting purpose,

the working group considered a broad range of shooting activities.

 

 

giving us hope here

 

The working group also considered "practical shooting" competitions. Practical shooting events

generally measure a shooter's accuracy and speed in identifying and hitting targets while

negotiating obstacle-laden shooting courses. In these competitions, the targets are generally

stationary and the shooter is mobile, as opposed to clay target shooting where the targets are

moving at high speeds mimicking birds in flight. Practical shooting consist of rifle, shotgun and

handgun competitions, as well as "3-Gun" competitions utilizing all three types of firearm on

one course. The events are often organized by local or national shooting organizations and

attempt to categorize shooters by skill level in order to ensure competitiveness within the

respective divisions. The working group examined participation in and popularity of practical

shooting events as governed under formal rules such as those of the United States Practical

Shooting Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC) to see

if it is appropriate to consider these events a legitimate "sporting purpose" under section

925(d)(3).

 

Give us the big kiss here

 

Because a determination on the

sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of

those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study

to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are "sporting" for

purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns

because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on

practical shooting or "police/combat-type" competitions may have an impact on the sporting

suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain

practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is "generally

recognized" as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events,

practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns.

Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect

of the practical shooting competitions.

 

told us they loved us here

 

The final step in our review involved an evaluation of shotguns to determine a "type" of firearm

that is "generally recognized as particularly suitable or readily adaptable to sporting purposes."

 

neglected any lube here

 

Whereas rifles vary greatly in size, function, caliber and design, historically, there is less

variation in shotgun design. However, in the past several years, ATF has witnessed increasingly

diverse shotgun design. Much of this is due to the fact that some manufacturers are now

applying rifle designs and features to shotguns. This has resulted in a type of shotgun that has

features or characteristics that are based on tactical and military firearms. Following a review of

numerous shotguns, literature, and industry advertisements, the working group determined that

the following shotgun features and design characteristics are particularly suitable for the military

or law enforcement, and therefore, offer little or no advantage to the sportsman.

 

and rammed it home here

 

Therefore, we

recognized that any shotgun with one or more of these features represent a "type" of firearm that

is not "generally recognized as particularly suitable or readily adaptable to sporting purposes"

and may not be imported under section 925(d)(3).

 

Then spit on our back here

 

(4) Magazine over 5 rounds, or a Drum Magazine.

The 1989 Study recognized that virtually all modern military firearms are designed to accept

large, detachable magazines. The 1989 Study noted that this feature provides soldiers with a

large ammunition supply and the ability to reload rapidly. The 1998 Study concurred with this

and found that, for rifles, the ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine was not a

sporting feature. The majority of shotguns on the market today contain an integral "tube"

magazine. However, certain shotguns utilize removable box magazine like those commonly

used for rifles.

 

 

That last statement in their words will kill the IMPORTABILITY of the saiga 12. Gentlemen, we have met the enemy it it is us. Our exuberance with making the S12 fun and putting it on Youtube may have killed us.

 

here they rub it in a little

 

 

These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells

and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a

detachable magazine.

However, the working group determined that magazines capable of holding large amounts of

ammunition, regardless of type, are particularly designed and most suitable for military and law

enforcement applications.

 

Will this make our guns illegal,,,,NO. Will they come take them away,,,, NO. But we won't be able to get them anymore in the future,,,,, unless they come in "repair part kits without the receive rand barrel. Which all can be made here.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but the writing is right there....yes this is a study but hopefully they won't do anything about it. I'm hoping they are scared to do anything about banning stuff, although this might sneak though as an import ban

Edited January 28, 2011 by utahhandyman

[Bridis 319]

  On 1/28/2011 at 1:19 AM, frick said:

1) The value of SS's, Strikers, etc, has not risen appreciably after becoming DD's, that said, the worst thing is registration, if thats the case, and the inherent problems with future transfer. So value shouldn't be an issue, future availability is, and that WILL drive prices up, not down.

 

Whats to bet on.

 

2 and 3, far less likely, I'm sure you could find somewhere in Vegas if you feel like pursuing it.

 

 

So you are so sure that you're willing to bet nothing?

 

Um.. Ok.

[cbang 0]

MD Arms just made the drums temporarily out of stock.

Edited January 28, 2011 by cbang

[SaigaKen 338]

No tin foil hat here.....

 

But....

 

Reading that report just made me sick. The ground work is being laid. Everything that a Saiga owner deems to be "cool" or "evil", I feel will eventually be in jeapordy.

 

I dont know much about the current law or previous bans, but with everything mentioned from light,rails,grips,drums, and so on......someone in the govt does not want us to have.

 

The most important question is "how do we stop it before it starts"? How do we stop this from eventually becoming law?

 

Half tempted to sell mine

[mscottrogers 56]

come on guys, stand up and tell me i'm nuts,,,,,PLEASE.... I love my SAIGAS :cryss::cry::cry:

 

I hate when the man takes stuff away from law abiding people when the laws are already there but not enforced. That damn psycho shouldn't have been able to get a gun in the first place, if he was legally insane as they have reported...its right there on the form

Edited January 28, 2011 by utahhandyman

[mscottrogers 56]

  On 1/28/2011 at 2:47 AM, Saiga Power said:

No tin foil hat here.....

 

But....

 

Reading that report just made me sick. The ground work is being laid. Everything that a Saiga owner deems to be "cool" or "evil", I feel will eventually be in jeapordy.

 

I dont know much about the current law or previous bans, but with everything mentioned from light,rails,grips,drums, and so on......someone in the govt does not want us to have.

 

The most important question is "how do we stop it before it starts"? How do we stop this from eventually becoming law?

 

Half tempted to sell mine

 

They won't be coming to take anything away, just not importing is all. Like I said there are work arounds with repair kits. The only way to stop is tell your congressman how you will vote if he or she lets this become law. We can still get AK 30 round mags, We can still get US built AKs, just nothing with a Ruuskie reciever or barrel.

 

 

I'll throw this in for hope from page 18

 

The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications,

including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm. This may

be overcome by evidence that the particular shotgun or feature has been so regularly used by

sportsmen that it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to

sporting purposes. Such evidence may include marketing, industry literature and consumer

articles, scholarly and historical publications, military publications, the existence of State and

local statutes and regulations limiting use of the shotgun or features for sporting purposes, and

the overall use and the popularity of such features or designs for sporting purposes according to

hunting guides, shooting magazines, State game commissioners, organized competitive hunting

and shooting groups, law enforcement agencies or organizations, industry members and trade

associations, and interest and information groups.

 

 

So if the importers and magazines do enough stories and marketing about how great this sporting shotgun is as imported, then we can have some hope.

me.... I'm holding my breathe

Edited January 28, 2011 by utahhandyman

[mscottrogers 56]

Hey Mods..... start a new section on hunting with pictures and stories bout how we have been using this sporting shotgun for years and we can send the MAN a link

Edited January 28, 2011 by utahhandyman

[roachtron 49]

  On 1/27/2011 at 10:49 PM, TonyRumore said:

It sounds like the Saiga could be imported with a pistol grip in place.

The 4 inch depth measurement doesn't include the grip, so it's clear there as well.

Also, the new Turkish MKA1919 (AR-15 looking shotgun) to be imported by RAA looks to be in the clear as well. I first though the 4" depth measurement may restrict it, but later it is stated that sights don't count in the measurement.

 

 

Tony

 

Do They have an estimated date when these will start coming in? Looks like a good alternative for those of us who are used to an ar.

[nattyiceking 33]

  On 1/28/2011 at 1:21 AM, Stansplace said:

Crazy, tinfoil hat, whatever, the whole damn thing makes me sick to my stomach. Again, the 2A doesn't mention sporting purposes anywhere.

 

And why do the police and military get the exemptions? Couldn't the same bad guys they are up against come against me and mine?

 

I could go on and on about the whole damn camel in the tent situation we as Americans are facing, instead I think I'll go throw up now.

 

+1

 

These are my feelings exactly