Convert a Saiga or get a Romanian AK?

[chapnelson 2]

I've been lurking here for a couple months as I got the bug for a couple Saiga projects; decided to start with 7.62x39, will do S308 later. Mississippi has the Saiga for $320ish shipped, but Classic has a Romanian military set up for $350 (before shipping) with synthetic furniture and a pile of loot. So I gotta ask, if you know you're going to convert it anyway, what is the advantage of a Saiga over just buying a Romanian?

 

Mahalo, Chaps

[Ermac 8]

I've been lurking here for a couple months as I got the bug for a couple Saiga projects; decided to start with 7.62x39, will do S308 later. Mississippi has the Saiga for $320ish shipped, but Classic has a Romanian military set up for $350 (before shipping) with synthetic furniture and a pile of loot. So I gotta ask, if you know you're going to convert it anyway, what is the advantage of a Saiga over just buying a Romanian?

 

Mahalo, Chaps

Everybody hear will say Saiga because this is a Saiga forum, but the WASR is a better buy imo. The WASR functions just as reliably as the Saiga does and shoots just as straight.

[self_inflicted 70]

Because Saiga's are RUSSIAN duh!!!

 

On a serious note, most people on this forum enjoy the process of converting their Saiga, plus, it's a way for you to know your gun inside and out. Also, out of personal experience, I've found Saiga's to be of better quality, but either way, it's still an AK

 

self_inflicted

Edited July 22, 2010 by self_inflicted

[paprotective 362]

They are addicting...

 

First was 7.62x39 Saiga in July 09 (for my Bday).. Christine

 

2nd was 5.45x39 Saiga in Feb 2010 (tax time)... Helene

 

3rd.. is the 308 Saiga with 21" barrel.. July 21st, 2010.. (late Bday gift to myself)... Janis .... (belts a mean tune)..

 

Rifles are like Barbie's for men... You can dress them up repeatedly..

 

Some other guy on here just asked your same question (basically) a few days ago..

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=56473&view=getnewpost&hl=&fromsearch=1

 

Albert

[rob-cubed 74]

If it's your first AK, get the WASR. While I feel the Saiga is a much better rifle--in terms of both fit and accuracy--it'll also cost you more in the long run. Simple DIY conversion runs $100+ and a complete conversion is much more costly and involved. The WASR is everything an AK should be out of the box, though Century's poly furniture is pretty awful.

[nalioth 405]

Everybody hear will say Saiga because this is a Saiga forum, but the WASR is a better buy imo. The WASR functions just as reliably as the Saiga does and shoots just as straight.

"Better" is subjective.

 

WASRs are made of used parts.

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

WASRs are made of parts rejected by QC (at the level the Romys actually do QC [sCARY, EH?]).

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

 

New parts versus used/QC rejected parts?

[Stansplace 414]

Everybody hear will say Saiga because this is a Saiga forum, but the WASR is a better buy imo. The WASR functions just as reliably as the Saiga does and shoots just as straight.

"Better" is subjective.

 

WASRs are made of used parts.

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

WASRs are made of parts rejected by QC (at the level the Romys actually do QC [sCARY, EH?]).

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

 

New parts versus used/QC rejected parts?

 

^^^^^^^^THIS

[Ermac 8]

Everybody hear will say Saiga because this is a Saiga forum, but the WASR is a better buy imo. The WASR functions just as reliably as the Saiga does and shoots just as straight.

"Better" is subjective.

 

WASRs are made of used parts.

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

WASRs are made of parts rejected by QC (at the level the Romys actually do QC [sCARY, EH?]).

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

 

New parts versus used/QC rejected parts?

They are made from demilled military rifles actually. I doubt the parts on the rifles are very used. I haven't heard about premature parts breakage on the WASR's. There are proof marks on the rifle.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Ermac

[L5K 162]

Everybody hear will say Saiga because this is a Saiga forum, but the WASR is a better buy imo. The WASR functions just as reliably as the Saiga does and shoots just as straight.

"Better" is subjective.

 

WASRs are made of used parts.

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

WASRs are made of parts rejected by QC (at the level the Romys actually do QC [sCARY, EH?]).

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

 

New parts versus used/QC rejected parts?

 

^^^^^^^^THIS

 

You mean the Romanians, under Soviet control kept boxes full of thousands of "rejected" parts so that later, after the fall of the Soviet Union, they could build them into rifles (finally) and sell them to Americans? Somehow I doubt this logic. No, in fact, the WASR rifles are made just as well as any other Romanian AK is. Any rejected parts would have been quickly made into new usable parts, because we're talking about the Soviet Union here. They did not waste anything. They did not leave unusable parts laying around for decades just waiting for the chance to jump on the great capitalist bandwagon and sell them to someone. The WASRs are built out of demilled rifles, rebuilt on Romanian single stack receivers in the same factory in which they built all their other AKM pattern rifles. Do some of them have problems? Yes. Do most of them work as intended? Yes. The Cugir factory in Romania, and Century who imports and opens the magwells on the WASRs have put more reliable AKs into the hands of the American public than any other company. Period. More rifles means more problem rifles, true, but does not mean much else. If Arsenal had a 10% defect rate on their rifles, that would be a handful of people complaining on the internet and nobody would notice. If the WASR had a 10% defect rate, that would be hundreds of people complaining on the internet, and the great internet hive mind will notice.

[Spikester 93]

When I was looking for a Saiga, I looked at a WASR at a store and compaired it to a Saiga. I thought the Saiga was better made, when you rack the bolt a a WASR and then a Saiga the Saiga sounder tighter, less clunky. WASR stock is so short I couldn't get my head low wnough to sight it so I put a NATO length stock on my Saiga when I restored it.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

It all depends really. The WASR has more loot in Classic Arm's pack, and will be a good rifle, but you should get the Saiga IMO. It's made from all new, modern, Russian parts. Also, it depends how you see it, but a lot of the fun of the Saiga is doing the conversion and customizing the parts to exactly how you want it.

[Stansplace 414]

Yea, Century is soooooooo well known for their quality control. Justify it however you want, the OP did ask the question and lo and behold, the opinions started rolling in. Imagine that.

[chapnelson 2]

Appreciate the replies, I've not fired an AK since commbloc training in the 80s. After 23 years with Stoner's toy I'm ready for something new. I've worked on/with lots of other platforms so the conversion is alluring in itself. I think I got my answer - the Saiga receivers are better made, and fit & finish are better, yeh? So if you wanted a quality build, Saiga is the preferred foundation? Less rattle = better accuracy, yeh?

 

I'm just cautious of building a $1000 conversion that functions no different than $350 WASR and trying to justify the $ since I know I'm going to do an S308 conversion anyway.

 

Appreciate the comments, and passionate opinions don't scare me none - just means you feel strongly about your choices, as you ought.

[L5K 162]

 

 

I'm simply stating facts. They are reliable solid rifles.

If you don't like them that's fine, but the old "rejected" parts myth is just that, myth.

 

As far as accuracy is concerned, the WASR, once again, performs like an AK should. Generally in the AK game a more expensive rifle will have a better fit and finish, or more collector's value. They all are about equal for accuracy as long as they are properly assembled.

 

As others have said however, it really depends on how comfortable you are working on the rifle, and how much you want to get into the conversion. If you like to tinker and build stuff, then the Saiga would be the way to go. If you want to buy a rifle that will be a shooter out of the box, I'd recommend the WASR.

[nalioth 405]

If you don't like them that's fine, but the old "rejected" parts myth is just that, myth.

How short our memories are. .

 

I've seen WASRs from years back (before they took up the US-inspired idea of recycling their military guns) with bad chrome jobs in the barrels, oddly-shaped gas and sight blocks, etc - ALL things that would not have passed the QC for their military product line, but posed no danger for civilian usage.

 

It was not a myth. It was a cost-saving measure used by the Romanians.

[my762buzz 141]

If you don't like them that's fine, but the old "rejected" parts myth is just that, myth.

 

Ever notice the serial numbering on the wasr parts? The serial numbers can often be dated back to the 20 or 30 year old original issued rifles. They cut up old worn out shit guns into parts and either sell the parts as kits or recycle them by rebirthing the old parts into sporter single stack rifles called WASRs. Century International Arms buys both the junk parts and the WASRs. Their reputation with either type is infamous for trying to compete with Hesse for the title of the worst AK products ever distributed. No thanks.

 

 

They all are about equal for accuracy

My properly built Russian rifles from Izhmash or Molot with fresh off the assembly line with modern upgraded 100 series parts (not AKM) have produced Sub 1.5 inch groups with 7.62x39 US made ammo. I have yet to see anywhere near that well from WASR range reports in the same caliber. If all someone want the gun for is to make some blasting noise bumpfiring and watch the flame exit the muzzle, then go the simpler route with a WASR. I guess I am an AK snob because I want what I think is the better product for my money.

[GregM1 241]

as said before, you came to the saiga forum, expect to hear saiga most.

 

i would compare the two like this.

 

Compare them like an Accura to a Honda. They are made from the same stuff just by different factories. However, the accura is always marginally better. Is it worth the cost to you to get one that will have a little better performance and look or are you after one that will get the job done, but doesn't feel as smooth or look as clean. I have also heard the Romys referred to as yugo's. Lots and lots of people have good ones but there have been lots of lemons.

 

If you have opportunity, I would say go to several gun shops and handle as many of each as you can. I think this will be your deciding factor. I only handled a few before deciding on a Saiga as my first ak. It took me little time to find which I prefered. I prefer the saiga's 100 series parts also over the old school style parts. They work on an updated design while the romys use the old 47 style parts.

 

The cost of a saiga can vary, with the rifles around 300 - 330$ lately, plus 100+$ on conversions depending on which features you wish.

Edited July 23, 2010 by GregM1

[Tarheel72 16]

My shooting buddy just picked up a WASR at a gun show a few weeks ago and last week we went to the range and I had the chance to shoot his and my converted Saiga back to back, several times. His WASR has iron sights, a slant muzzle break, wood furniture and a Warsaw length stock. My Saiga has tactical poly furniture and a red dot scope, and a DPH flash hider. At 100 yards I had no trouble hitting the target with the WASR, grouping the shots around 4 inches or so. His laminate wood was smooth but dull and not real attractive. The rifle seemed "looser" to me, not tight and crisp like mine. The action seemed stiff. On the side it was stamped "1976". If I could only take one, I would take the Saiga, but his WASR was certainly functional. It did not misfire at all and functioned as advertised. He paid $389 (no tax) and got the WASR with all of the normal accessories, like bayonet, cleaning kit, two 30 round mags, sling, pouch, etc. I am pretty sure it was Century Arms model.

 

Not sure about the $1000 to convert. I guess you could spend that much, but if all you are doing is moving the trigger, installing new furniture and a bullet guide (which brings it up to the same configuration as the WASR) the cost is probably closer to $150-200.

[nalioth 405]

My shooting buddy just picked up a WASR at a gun show a few weeks ago <snip> I am pretty sure it was Century Arms model.

. . and what else would it be? Century has the importation rights to these locked in (and has for years).

 

Besides, who'd want to name their AK a "WASR"?

 

Not sure about the $1000 to convert. I guess you could spend that much, but if all you are doing is moving the trigger, installing new furniture and a bullet guide (which brings it up to the same configuration as the WASR) the cost is probably closer to $150-200.

It only takes a gee-whiz $400 butt stock and a whiz-bang $400 railed hand guard and BOOM $1000 down the shi**er. . .

 

 

 

Do you have to spend $1000? No. A basic conversion can be done for about $100 + cost of rifle.

[L5K 162]

If the parts in the WASRs are rejected parts, then the parts the original issued rifles were made out of are also rejected parts. It would be much safer and cheaper to send any rejected parts back to the foundry and make them into correct parts. This would be true under Soviet rule, and especially more true when sending the rifles to civilians, and even more so Americans who will sue over a cup of coffee being hot.

[Ermac 8]

If you don't like them that's fine, but the old "rejected" parts myth is just that, myth.

 

Ever notice the serial numbering on the wasr parts? The serial numbers can often be dated back to the 20 or 30 year old original issued rifles. They cut up old worn out shit guns into parts and either sell the parts as kits or recycle them by rebirthing the old parts into sporter single stack rifles called WASRs. Century International Arms buys both the junk parts and the WASRs. Their reputation with either type is infamous for trying to compete with Hesse for the title of the worst AK products ever distributed. No thanks.

 

 

They all are about equal for accuracy

My properly built Russian rifles from Izhmash or Molot with fresh off the assembly line with modern upgraded 100 series parts (not AKM) have produced Sub 1.5 inch groups with 7.62x39 US made ammo. I have yet to see anywhere near that well from WASR range reports in the same caliber. If all someone want the gun for is to make some blasting noise bumpfiring and watch the flame exit the muzzle, then go the simpler route with a WASR. I guess I am an AK snob because I want what I think is the better product for my money.

The VEPR is a different story because it has a heavier barrel. Sub 1.5? I would have to see it to believe it.

[chapnelson 2]

Appreciate the feedback folks! Looks like Saiga is perfect for my needs.

[BrutalGardener 205]

Everybody hear will say Saiga because this is a Saiga forum, but the WASR is a better buy imo. The WASR functions just as reliably as the Saiga does and shoots just as straight.

"Better" is subjective.

 

WASRs are made of used parts.

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

WASRs are made of parts rejected by QC (at the level the Romys actually do QC [sCARY, EH?]).

 

Saigas are made of new parts.

 

 

 

New parts versus used/QC rejected parts?

 

^^^^^^^^THIS

 

You mean the Romanians, under Soviet control kept boxes full of thousands of "rejected" parts so that later, after the fall of the Soviet Union, they could build them into rifles (finally) and sell them to Americans? Somehow I doubt this logic. No, in fact, the WASR rifles are made just as well as any other Romanian AK is. Any rejected parts would have been quickly made into new usable parts, because we're talking about the Soviet Union here. They did not waste anything. They did not leave unusable parts laying around for decades just waiting for the chance to jump on the great capitalist bandwagon and sell them to someone. The WASRs are built out of demilled rifles, rebuilt on Romanian single stack receivers in the same factory in which they built all their other AKM pattern rifles. Do some of them have problems? Yes. Do most of them work as intended? Yes. The Cugir factory in Romania, and Century who imports and opens the magwells on the WASRs have put more reliable AKs into the hands of the American public than any other company. Period. More rifles means more problem rifles, true, but does not mean much else. If Arsenal had a 10% defect rate on their rifles, that would be a handful of people complaining on the internet and nobody would notice. If the WASR had a 10% defect rate, that would be hundreds of people complaining on the internet, and the great internet hive mind will notice.

 

Actually, Cheushesku's Romania was not under Soviet control. It was the most reluctant member of the Warsaw Pact and often argued and squabbled with the USSR and other members. In fact, Romania condemned the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan and participated in the boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympic Games, pissing off Brezhnev and Co quite a bit. The only reason that the Warsaw Pact didn't take him down, Hungary or Prague Spring style, was the fact that, by the late 70s, they were ruled by bunch of pussies.

 

Not to imply that Cheushesku was a good guy though. In fact, he was the worst, most oppressive of all the Warsaw Pact heads of states. He just didn't like to share his power over the Romanian people or anyone telling him what to do. He ended up being the only leader who got violently lynched (along with his wife) after The Curtain came down.

[rmptben 9]

im not knocking anybody for trying to save money but it's funny how little 200 bucks between rifles meant to me after i started shooting a lot of ammo.to me aks are like a crap shoot.you have certain percentages for getting a solid rifle which increase or decrease according to the make.

[my762buzz 141]

The VEPR is a different story because it has a heavier barrel. Sub 1.5? I would have to see it to believe it.

 

Vmax 125 grain double tap has that honor so far in both types using a 12x scope on the bags with even timed intervals.

I think the reason why more people don't get better groups is their ammo quality and maybe lack of better optics.

Show up at my outdoor range next time I go and you will believe.

Edited July 24, 2010 by my762buzz

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Yeah.. VEPRs are cool an all, but.. Izhmash 7.62x39 rifles, (especially Legion rifles), are closer to the AK-103. VEPRs use the heavier RPK receivers and barrels, which are completely unnecessary for anything but a light machine gun, (the RPK).

 

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but I'd bet that given the same ammo and optics, my SGL21-62 will shoot just as accurately as your Molot model, my762buzz.. and my rifle's a couple pounds lighter. Weight matters quite a bit, especially if we ever have to use these rifles for the purpose they were designed for.

 

As for WASR vs Saiga.. the higher quality weapon is the Saiga, without a doubt.

 

That said, a well-built WASR can be a good shooter, and no conversion restoration is necessary.

 

Since it sounds like you're no stranger to power tools; my advice is to go with the Saiga, chapnelson.

Edited July 24, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[my762buzz 141]

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but I'd bet that given the same ammo and optics, my SGL21-62 will shoot just as accurately as your Molot model, my762buzz.. and my rifle's a couple pounds lighter.

 

The last time I shot them side by side with the same vmax ammo and same magnification optics and sand bags my vepr edged out my saiga with a slightly larger than 1 inch 5 shot group.

My saiga with the same ammo kept up close until the last two shots where it opened up to a hair under 1.5 inches. The heavier barrel made a difference (heat sink) at the end but not by much. All things being equal a heavy barrel helps absorb heat for sustained consistency but your right that the trade off is a heavy ass gun. Damm I wish they made a 1 inch bull barrel saiga. That would be my must buy next gun for a unique bench toy.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but I'd bet that given the same ammo and optics, my SGL21-62 will shoot just as accurately as your Molot model, my762buzz.. and my rifle's a couple pounds lighter.

 

The last time I shot them side by side with the same vmax ammo and same magnification optics and sand bags my vepr edged out my saiga with a slightly larger than 1 inch 5 shot group.

My saiga with the same ammo kept up close until the last two shots where it opened up to a hair under 1.5 inches. The heavier barrel made a difference (heat sink) at the end but not by much. All things being equal a heavy barrel helps absorb heat for sustained consistency but your right that the trade off is a heavy ass gun...

 

That sounds about right. Personally, I'll take the far lighter rifle with the tradeoff of slightly less sustained rapid-fire accuracy.

 

I do wish I had bought a VEPR back when they were still being imported. They're fine rifles. They'd not be my first choice as a SHTF weapon though, (my SGL would), which is what anyone's first AK should be, imo.

[nalioth 405]

They'd not be my first choice as a SHTF weapon though, (my SGL would), which is what anyone's first AK should be, imo.

So when's the wedding?

 

"SGL this" "SGL that" "SGL SGL SGL"

 

Sheesh, give it a break.

[into_the_knight 22]

If the parts in the WASRs are rejected parts, then the parts the original issued rifles were made out of are also rejected parts. It would be much safer and cheaper to send any rejected parts back to the foundry and make them into correct parts. This would be true under Soviet rule, and especially more true when sending the rifles to civilians, and even more so Americans who will sue over a cup of coffee being hot.

I think the reason he says they are rejected parts is because when it came time to refurbish them, they didn't make the grade to be refurbished for their needs. So you can demill the parts and put them on a single stack receiver and sell them into the US market.

 

WASRs have gotten better over the years. A recently imported one won't have the mag well hogged out quite as much, and they may be working harder on straight sights etc.

 

But a parts gun from 1968 versus a new gun from 2009 would make me think twice.

 

With all that said.

 

until Saigas are down to $240 it doesn't make me want to buy another one for converting.

 

I'd consider the WASR since their QC has gotten better over the last two years.