Nick89 1 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Edited January 12, 2011 by Nick89 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fumes 84 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) :lolol: I'm in full on panic mode. Nice first post BTW. Edited January 12, 2011 by Fumes 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 This is a good reply in the comments section below the article, found in the link at the bottom of the original post.... "This is getting a lot of coverage lately for nothing. Yes, pistol-grip only shotguns are not "shotguns". Shotguns are made or remade, designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder. Clearly these PGO-shotguns aren't actually "shotguns". But they aren't DD's either. The ATF basically maintains that anything that fires a regular sporting-purpose shotgun shell is legal, unless and until they declare it a DD. This is why the street sweeper, stryker-12, etc were declared DD's after they were allowed as regular Title 1 firearms. The ATF IS NOT going to re-classify all these mossberg cruisers as DD's. There are too many millions of them sold. It's just not going to happen. As to their classification, they are a Title 1 "Other" firearm (note, not AOW) that fires shotgun shells. Nothing more. They are legal to own. Regarding barrel length, since they are not shotguns, there is no law requiring them have a barrel length of 18" or more. As long as their OAL is kept to 26" or greater, they can have a shorter barrel. However, some states (like CA) might have laws that override that, which is why most of them have 18" barrels anyways. Also, the ATF didn't just recently "re-classify" these guns. They've never been shotguns according to the federal definition of shotguns laid out in the GCA of '68. They've ALWAYS been Title 1 "other" firearms." 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick89 1 Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) This is a good reply in the comments section below the article, found in the link at the bottom of the original post.... "This is getting a lot of coverage lately for nothing. Yes, pistol-grip only shotguns are not "shotguns". Shotguns are made or remade, designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder. Clearly these PGO-shotguns aren't actually "shotguns". But they aren't DD's either. The ATF basically maintains that anything that fires a regular sporting-purpose shotgun shell is legal, unless and until they declare it a DD. This is why the street sweeper, stryker-12, etc were declared DD's after they were allowed as regular Title 1 firearms. The ATF IS NOT going to re-classify all these mossberg cruisers as DD's. There are too many millions of them sold. It's just not going to happen. As to their classification, they are a Title 1 "Other" firearm (note, not AOW) that fires shotgun shells. Nothing more. They are legal to own. Regarding barrel length, since they are not shotguns, there is no law requiring them have a barrel length of 18" or more. As long as their OAL is kept to 26" or greater, they can have a shorter barrel. However, some states (like CA) might have laws that override that, which is why most of them have 18" barrels anyways. Also, the ATF didn't just recently "re-classify" these guns. They've never been shotguns according to the federal definition of shotguns laid out in the GCA of '68. They've ALWAYS been Title 1 "other" firearms." Thanks for posting this. I stumbled upon that article and thought the ATF was getting stupid again. Edited January 12, 2011 by Nick89 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Welcome to the forum, Nick89. Even though my Mossberg Cruiser may not be classified as a shotgun, given the ATF's ability to change their minds, and the fact that many LE officers (ATF or otherwise) are not "up" on all the laws, I don't think I'll be shortening my barrel anytime soon. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darko 42 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 i love this forum... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tusken Raider 6 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Hi all, just joined but I have been lurking for a while. So, for my first post............................. I guess instead of buying a 12 I might want to buy a 20 instead then convert. I don't really want a 20, but my wife might be able to handle the 20 better than the 12. Personally I do not really hold the ATF in very high regard. More along the line of bungling idiots that somehow are able to do whatever they want. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
one 4 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) If I remember correctly the passing of a new law can not make currently legal firearms illegal. It would only affect the future sale of firearms. Edited January 12, 2011 by one Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 +1 vote to ban new accounts who's first few posts are used as a "scare tactic". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fumes 84 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 +1 vote to ban new accounts who's first few posts are used as a "scare tactic". This is what I was getting at in a round about way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 It doesn't apply to S-12s anyhow. We have a buttstock & a pistol grip. Not a pistol grip in place of a buttstock. This was posted so recently that it must be a chain e-mail or something. No worries bro. If you have a mossy or remmy that it may apply to, get a PG Knox Stock with detachable buttstock. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick89 1 Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) +1 vote to ban new accounts who's first few posts are used as a "scare tactic". ??? I have a Saiga 12, I posted this because it worried me about the legality of the gun I own. And I'm planing on getting a Mossberg 500. Edited January 18, 2011 by Nick89 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
454496 71 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 So can the ATF make new laws or new regulation to reclassify weapons? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) +1 vote to ban new accounts who's first few posts are used as a "scare tactic". ??? I have a Saiga 12, I posted this because it worried me about the legality of the gun I own. And I'm planing on getting a Mossberg 500. Scare tactic? Maybe you should leave your basement sometime it might help your paranoia. You haven't even contributed to the forum. And you ask for me to be banned? Uh, dude, Bridis has done a few VERY thorough new-product reviews that really helped me learn a shitload... He spent his money on ammo for a test of the Tac47 autoplug instead of contributing to the forum... Edited January 18, 2011 by Caged 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vicarious_Lee 84 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) +1 vote to ban new accounts who's first few posts are used as a "scare tactic". ??? I have a Saiga 12, I posted this because it worried me about the legality of the gun I own. And I'm planing on getting a Mossberg 500. Scare tactic? Maybe you should leave your basement sometime it might help your paranoia. You haven't even contributed to the forum. And you ask for me to be banned? Hell, I wasn't gonna say anything, but I'll second that. Oh, and thanks, Bridis, for the in-depth and extensive video review you contributed to the forum. I watched it with interest and it helped me make a decision on the product. Edited January 18, 2011 by Vicarious_Lee 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ewoketeer 35 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 This IS concern as there is already precedent. I don't remember the year (probably during the Clinton Era, I don't remember exactly) when then Secretary of the Treasury Bentzen declared certain shotguns as Destructive Devices (USAS12, Streetsweeper, etc). It shouldn't have withstood Constitutional Scrutiny, but it did. As a result, we should be at least a little(?) concerned. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick89 1 Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) Well, I did not know he had done that review. Why should I be banned for posting something that could effect all of us? Should we not know what the ATF is trying to do to fuck us? Now if we are all done throwing sticks and stones Hand grenades at each other lets get back on topic. What if the secretary of the treasury adds our S12s to the list of destructive devices? Edited January 18, 2011 by Nick89 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 What if the secretary of the treasury adds our S12s to the list of destructive devices? Assuming it passes muster, the same thing that happened to the Striker, Street Sweeper and USAS 12: Those that already have them will be allowed to keep them, but they'd be registered as DDs. The fact that they aren't imported already converted might make it less likely. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 If you take a Shotgun that is OEM with a pistol grip, but no buttstock, and intend to shorten the barrel, that is classified an AOW, Any Other Weapon, which I believe is a $5 stamp fee, NFA rules apply. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 This has been discussed on here ad nauseum. Don't worry about what they COULD do. They're an out-of-control federal agency. They can do whatever they want. Worry about what you CAN control, not what you CAN'T. My 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 What if the secretary of the treasury adds our S12s to the list of destructive devices? It's not going to. Perticularly, not under that law unless you're talking about an AOW with no buttstock. If anything were to happen it would be to these. So you would do this; Or buy one of these & pin the stock; If they said no free standing pistol grips, sales of these would go through the roof; The key words of that letter are "Pistol grip in place of buttstock." It's a non issue. At any rate, the police seem to think they're most effective like this anyhow. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaKen 338 Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi all, just joined but I have been lurking for a while. So, for my first post............................. I guess instead of buying a 12 I might want to buy a 20 instead then convert. I don't really want a 20, but my wife might be able to handle the 20 better than the 12. Personally I do not really hold the ATF in very high regard. More along the line of bungling idiots that somehow are able to do whatever they want. Buy a S12 for your pleasure and a S20 for hers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Can we dig up my archived posts where I begged the makers of Saiga 12 mags to make them 8 or 9 round instead of 10 so that they didn't meet the ATF's criteria for a Destructive Device? Where I jumped people like Mike Davidson for doing shit that was going to get my S12 declare a Destructive Device? Yet again SOPMOD was a seer of futures events and predicted the coming bullshit accurately just like Obama, Gold and the shitted out economy. If my S-12s become DDs then I know who to blame, I lost my USAS-12 the same God Damned way over a decade and a half ago... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 What do you mean "lost your USAS 12", No grace period? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Can we dig up my archived posts where I begged the makers of Saiga 12 mags to make them 8 or 9 round instead of 10 so that they didn't meet the ATF's criteria for a Destructive Device? Where I jumped people like Mike Davidson for doing shit that was going to get my S12 declare a Destructive Device? Yet again SOPMOD was a seer of futures events and predicted the coming bullshit accurately just like Obama, Gold and the shitted out economy. If my S-12s become DDs then I know who to blame, I lost my USAS-12 the same God Damned way over a decade and a half ago... This ruling is different from the one in the "Uh Oh..." thread and does not concern the S12. The Monday ruling could but remains to be seen. Still BS but it does not affect the S12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Well, I did not know he had done that review. Why should I be banned for posting something that could effect all of us? Should we not know what the ATF is trying to do to fuck us? Now if we are all done throwing sticks and stones Hand grenades at each other lets get back on topic. What if the secretary of the treasury adds our S12s to the list of destructive devices? Well then I guess the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of S-12s, S-20s, and S-410s would need to be registered. Yes, that's right the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of them would have to be rounded up from their undocumented owners and registered one-by-one until ALL of them had papers. If they started today, it probably wouldn't end up happening fully until 2040, so I think we've got plenty of time... Oh, and save your little negative rep points for someone who actually gives a shit... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Well, I did not know he had done that review. Why should I be banned for posting something that could effect all of us? Should we not know what the ATF is trying to do to fuck us? Now if we are all done throwing sticks and stones Hand grenades at each other lets get back on topic. What if the secretary of the treasury adds our S12s to the list of destructive devices? Well then I guess the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of S-12s, S-20s, and S-410s would need to be registered. Yes, that's right the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of them would have to be rounded up from their undocumented owners and registered one-by-one until ALL of them had papers. If they started today, it probably wouldn't end up happening fully until 2040, so I think we've got plenty of time... Oh, and save your little negative rep points for someone who actually gives a shit... Not the .410s, they are under .5" bore diameter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Can we dig up my archived posts where I begged the makers of Saiga 12 mags to make them 8 or 9 round instead of 10 so that they didn't meet the ATF's criteria for a Destructive Device? Where I jumped people like Mike Davidson for doing shit that was going to get my S12 declare a Destructive Device? Yet again SOPMOD was a seer of futures events and predicted the coming bullshit accurately just like Obama, Gold and the shitted out economy. If my S-12s become DDs then I know who to blame, I lost my USAS-12 the same God Damned way over a decade and a half ago... LOL, you're funny. It's not the item that causes the ban, it's the people in office. i guess it's easier to blame Mike than your elected officials. Who do we blame for the 94 ban of "assault weapons"? Colt? Who is to blame for the 84 MG ban? Colt, Sendra, etc? anyone can be the "profit of doom". I will say right now that semiautos will be banned. May not happen tomorrow but in 100 years, who knows. Looks like i'm a profit too. Edited January 21, 2011 by Caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MaloDave 19 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think the word you need is PROPHET, not profit. Sorry for the English lesson. Malodave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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