Import Paperwork Already Being Denied!?!?

[Xitesmai 1]

Ok guys...the real issue here isn't the GCA of 1968 as mentioned above.

 

Its really the NFA of 1934 that states any non-sporting firearm with a bore over 0.50 is classified as a destructive device.

 

The "study", which contains no data, only opinion, is singling out items that are "non-sporting".

 

Once a determination that those items are indeed non-sporting, any shotgun that possess those items, whether it be Saiga, Mossberg, Benelli, etc. would be classified as a DD, and subject to NFA regulation.

 

 

I agree that keeping the NRA aware of our concerns is important. You representatives could help alittle, but only by applying pressure to the BATFE in a round about manner. Or they could draft new legislation in regards to NFA.

 

The most effective means to combat a NFA classification is to file a class action suit in court. However convincing any judge that the NFA of 34 is a violation of your 2nd Amendment rights is going to be tough.

 

Good luck to us all.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Xitesmai

[Guns Are Great 140]

Edited April 6, 2011 by Guns Are Great

[chednok 94]

So whats happens if the ATF decides to sit on their study and not approve any more paperwork? No legislation, no ruliing no nothing. The ruling could come down 5 years from now and during that time no more Saiga-12 coming into the country. They could sit on it for a decade.

[inzami 36]

The current study sets up Saiga as a non-sporting using the following points:

 

1. Limiting definition of sporting activity to hunting, skeet and trap shooting only and dropping such events as practical shooting competitions from being considered as sporting.

 

2. Having established #1, they go onto to state that shotguns with detachable magazines are not well suited for sporting: hunting, skeet and trap because the shooter doesn't need to have capacity to reload multiple sets of cartridges.

 

3. Another aspect taken into consideration is how a firearm is marketed, if such terms as 'assault','combat' are used in marketing of a firearm then its nature is deemed to be non-sporting.

 

4. Lastly they point out that if a firearm is based on a platform which was originally developed for military application then it also may be deemed to be non-sporting.

 

If the sporting definition can be expanded to include 3-gun competition then it can serve as a foundation to keep Saiga importable.

Where NRA can do its part is to lobby to expand sporting definition.

[nattyiceking 33]

Nattyiceking, this is what is the matter with me. Fuck wads who bitch and moan, but never write the house of reps or senate! They never research deeper than their limited minds or pocket books. And have so little brains they can't see that the problem is any firearm is legal according to the Constitution and a right given by god to not be infringed!

 

Mike, CGW, Chaos, and others who have invested money, to aid in their ability to earn a living should worry about a single form of firearm type and its ability to be imported or manufactured and sold to the us citizen!

 

other folks, i.e. consumers or smart asses, dumb fucks, and nattyiceking's should be researching all people in control of these limitations and fixing them back to they way they were intended! or atleast realize their inaction is as much a problem as the gun haters actions. So Are you part of the problem or solution. I call and write all my reps and senators, president, govenor, nra, mayor, aldermen, in nice edited form, believe it or not! So people with no effort and single minded worries are whats the matter with me!

 

First of all I don't bitch and moan.

 

Second off, I already did my part and I wrote a letter to the ATF months ago, even though I knew it wouldn't do any good.

 

Third, there was no need to drag any vendors names into your reply. You think that's going to earn you some points you fucking jerkoff? I understand how they earn their living and I've spent hundreds of dollars buying their products.

 

Don't ever question my love for the Saiga-12.

 

I find it ironic that you called me a dumbfuck, in fact I think it's hilarious. Why don't you go back and take a look at one of your most recent masterpiece's, that review you did on the MD Arms Booster Piston. Jesus Christ. My ten year old niece could of done a better job.

 

My mind is far from limited. I've done plenty of my own research. I understand how this world works. I also understand that we're all fucked. Forget the Constitution. It went out the window a long time ago.

 

Judging by your past and the way you construct your posts on this forum, I call BULLSHIT on your letters being in "nice edited form."

 

That remark was the PERFECT punchline which all two hundred of your posts thus far have been leading up to. Thanks for that. I was literally laughing out loud.

 

 

Dear??? Congressman???!!!??

 

Fuck off.

Edited April 5, 2011 by nattyiceking

[Guns Are Great 140]

 

 

Edited April 6, 2011 by Guns Are Great

[elvis christ 451]

You two both need to shut the fuck up. This thread was a discussion about a serious issue, it could do without a bunch of bickering. Personally, I'm already pissed about Guns Are Great posting multiple replies in a row to his own post.

 

Back on topic, I still contend that the ability to accept a larger magazine has nothing to do with the importability of a weapon. The S12 comes in with a 5 round mag, which is totally within spec of the stupid rules, other than that, I see nothing about the imported configuration of the shotgun that should present any doubt about the legality of it.

[nattyiceking 33]

You two both need to shut the fuck up. This thread was a discussion about a serious issue, it could do without a bunch of bickering. Personally, I'm already pissed about Guns Are Great posting multiple replies in a row to his own post.

 

Why don't you mind your fucking business?

 

There's already been thirty other topics on this issue so personally, I don't give a shit what you think.

[elvis christ 451]

You two both need to shut the fuck up. This thread was a discussion about a serious issue, it could do without a bunch of bickering. Personally, I'm already pissed about Guns Are Great posting multiple replies in a row to his own post.

 

Why don't you mind your fucking business?

 

There's already been thirty other topics on this issue so personally, I don't give a shit what you think.

 

Nor do I care what you think. This was a thread started by a reliable source, as opposed to the rest of the threads based on pure speculation, and you fucks are muddling it up with silly bickering. I'm trying to get some information and insight, and you two are acting like children.

[grendelz 61]

I was just wondering. Can the ATF ban the 20 round mags made by Mike D and others? If they can't ban the sporting configuration of the saiga 12, can they go and ban the mags?

[beefcakeb99 572]

I was just wondering. Can the ATF ban the 20 round mags made by Mike D and others? If they can't ban the sporting configuration of the saiga 12, can they go and ban the mags?

Really, they can't do any of this shit justly. But they can do anything they want unjustly, and will with force if they have to.

[TheDriver 23]

I was just wondering. Can the ATF ban the 20 round mags made by Mike D and others? If they can't ban the sporting configuration of the saiga 12, can they go and ban the mags?

 

That's a different can of worms b/c the drums are neither firearms nor are they imported. I think Congress would have them in a hearing pretty damn quick if they tried to regulate magazines of any type without Congressional action.

[swifttal 2]

I am considering writing the NRA and telling them that if they do not put this issue at the top of their priority list and take serious action I will not be renewing my membership. There is a small 1 page article on page 76 of the April issue of American Rifleman(an NRA magizine). I would hope that they get more proactive about this issue immediatly. I have already emailed my represenitives and encourage more people to do so.

+1

Great point. Already wrote BATFE and several congressmen, this is next on my list. There hasn't been any mention of any of this in their recent email newsletters / roundups either. Seems like the NRA doesn't want to get mixed up in this one for some reason, which deeply concerns me more than the BATFE trying to fuck us per their predictable usual. NRA has never chosen sides on the 2nd unless it involves criminals, what is different about this one?

Edited April 6, 2011 by swifttal

[sickness 89]

I was just wondering. Can the ATF ban the 20 round mags made by Mike D and others? If they can't ban the sporting configuration of the saiga 12, can they go and ban the mags?

 

Well, check this out..

 

Read up on the laws for 37mm flare launchers.

 

It is 100% legal for anyone to buy a 37mm flare launcher (not even a title 1 firearm).

 

It is legal for anyone able to own ammunition to buy an aluminium 37mm hull and reload it with lead buckshot.

 

Own either one of them alone - and you are within compliance with the law.

 

Own both together, and you own a DD and it must be registered.

 

I could see something like that happening with the S12 and hi-cap mags.. but it seems like it would be a bitch to enforce.

[sickness 89]

I am considering writing the NRA and telling them that if they do not put this issue at the top of their priority list and take serious action I will not be renewing my membership. There is a small 1 page article on page 76 of the April issue of American Rifleman(an NRA magizine). I would hope that they get more proactive about this issue immediatly. I have already emailed my represenitives and encourage more people to do so.

+1

Great point. Already wrote BATFE and several congressmen, this is next on my list. There hasn't been any mention of any of this in their recent email newsletters / roundups either. Seems like the NRA doesn't want to get mixed up in this one for some reason, which deeply concerns me more than the BATFE trying to fuck us per their predictable usual. NRA has never chosen sides on the 2nd unless it involves criminals, what is different about this one?

 

Because this one hinges on law from the '30s dude. NRA has enough problems trying to get CURRENT laws shaped up, let alone tackling the NFA.

 

This is nothing NEW here. The only thing new is the definition of "sporting use shotgun" .. which, really .. is a damn long time coming, since there was no formal definition since the '30s. They can EASILY justify the need for such a new study, since shotgun technology has changed drastically from the break open and pump guns from back then... and, even back then bonafide "military" shotguns (trench guns) were legal for civilian ownership as usable for sporting purposes since they were not much different than commonly available sporting guns.

 

On top of that, but if a bunch of guns from Russia and Italy are not imported anymore.. well, from NRA's POV - it isn't that big of a deal. Izhmash and Benelli probably don't donate much to the NRA. The number of gun owners affected is ultimately pretty small.. so, if it isn't going to hurt their corporate supporters, and if the majority of private supporters aren't going to freak

out.. then why waste the energy?

 

NRA is like any other lobby.. they have to pick and choose their battles and balance the concerns of their supporters. Maybe they think this whole thing will go nowhere, so why get in a tizzy. Maybe their lawyers figure it is an unwinnable fight, so why bother. Maybe they just figure they'll cross that bridge when they come to it..

 

Its all just speculation.. the "experts" here know shit. The NRA probably doesn't know any different. Neither do we. Hell, there are any number of ATF officials who don't know what the hell is happening either.

 

It's useless to worry about this stuff.

[saltydecimator 482]

i LOVE!!!!! this forum! you guys keep it real, and think like i do. ya they made a section for pissing contests if thats what yall are doing....havent read the whole thread so i will butt out.

 

that being said, i think to get something done on this isssue we need not involve the atf. i e, we need to start hammering dept of justice or tlaking to news media and our reps/congresmen....

 

i gonna send and email to coburn from work...

[saltydecimator 482]

alright yall, here is what i said, pleasse make scathing remarks and question my heterosexuality, lol

 

but for real, lets get a template going and get it out to every local politician and media type we have...

 

"there is a lot a could say on this issue but i will try and keep it brief as i can only imagine how many emails yall get!!!

 

1- so here goes. atf just had a study about importability of foreign made shotgun.

 

2- fear is, doj is trying to ban the saiga 12 because it is way "scarier" than the street sweeper that kept so many congress people up sleepless nights in kalifornia, lol

 

3-the atf study is using the '34 and '68 nfa and gca acts to legislate that certain shotguns are non-sporting (saiga 12, winchester 1897 trench gun clone)

 

4-non sporting clause is a joke, as you are well aware. the 2nd A. is about defense of your property and country, so sporting has nothing to do with it.

 

i hope i have made some sense, as it is real early, and i would really appreciate your no-nonsense politics to approach this matter!

 

what i mean is that it seems like most other politicians are too busy getting elected and worrying about re-election to actally do whats right.

 

thanks for your time!"

 

 

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

[inzami 36]

Lack of noise from NRA regarding importability is likely due to the fact that they don't want to spend resources and political capital on this issue. Coincidentally precluding certain shotguns from being imported will likely increase sales of other shotgun manufacturers which may be contributing to NRA. This is why businesses pay lobbyists, to keep their market safe.

[Mephis 82]

If anyone wants to fight the NFA laws with a class action suit, it should be because of its wording.

 

The 2nd amendment doesn't mention "sporting" anywhere, and "sports" have nothing to do with gun laws.

 

 

And for that matter, how is a remington 1187 any more sporting than a striker? Besides that remington probably pads their wallet to keep imports out.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Tombs

[rob-cubed 74]

Lack of noise from NRA regarding importability is likely due to the fact that they don't want to spend resources and political capital on this issue. Coincidentally precluding certain shotguns from being imported will likely increase sales of other shotgun manufacturers which may be contributing to NRA. This is why businesses pay lobbyists, to keep their market safe.

 

Salient point. The NRA cares about our rights, but only up to a certain point, and I wouldn't expect them to put up much resistance to this. The S-12 market is still pretty small. What we perceive as a huge infringement by the BATFE gets a "who cares, it doesn't affect me" from most other gun owners, even ones who enjoy black rifles.

[chednok 94]

To answer the question about ATF banning the MD-20. Were high capacity magazines banned during the 1994-2004 assault weapons ban? Answer is yes so yes they can ban the md-20 and I think there is no doubt it will be banned. Especially since their is a fucking picture of the md-20 in the study.

Edited April 6, 2011 by chednok

[btr 15]

[elvis christ 451]

[TheDriver 23]

To answer the question about ATF banning the MD-20. Were high capacity magazines banned during the 1994-2004 assault weapons ban? Answer is yes so yes they can ban the md-20 and I think there is no doubt it will be banned. Especially since their is a fucking picture of the md-20 in the study.

 

AWB was an act of Congress enforced by the ATF. It was not, as another poster said, by ATF fiat.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

The only thing that I am concerned about is the part about a weapon platform being used as a military weapon. That shit scares me because it is pretty hard to convince someone that the AK platform is not designed for military use. Someone ease my fears about this particular part of the study.

[Jeep297 20]

<br />The only thing that I am concerned about is the part about a weapon platform being used as a military weapon. That shit scares me because it is pretty hard to convince someone that the AK platform is not designed for military use. Someone ease my fears about this particular part of the study.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

Sorry but that is my biggest fear as well. All the other points can be shown otherwise. I haven't heard a single person defend this one.

[yooper14.5 84]

A few points:

 

1) It is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for the BATFE to ban the manufacture of ANY gun magazine in the USA. The would require a law passed by Congress and signed by the president. The MD20 can't be banned by fiat by the BATFE. The idea that they could do so without a new law being passed is silly.

 

2) the whole BS about destructive devices and the sporting purpose nonsense was created by the GCA of 1968, not the original NFA of 1934. The NFA of 1934 had nothing about DDs.

 

3)Unfortunatly, the NRA can't force the BATFE to do ANYTHING. The NRA opposes this sporting purpose ban- but they don't run the BATFE. They can't force congress to change the import regs either. They may be working on something behind the scenes and we don't know about it (or not). Who knows. Damning them because they have only had one article about it their mag is pointless.

 

4) The stupid study specifically said shotgun box magazines can be sporting:

 

"In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between

integral tube magazines and removable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading,

reloading, and firing of ammunition. For example, "speed loaders" are available for shotguns

with tube-type magazines. These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells

and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a

detachable magazine."

 

This was pulled from page 10 of the stupid study, and can be seen here:

 

http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf

 

Just because the Saiga 12 takes a detachable box mag does not mean it will be banned according to their own words.

 

this actually kind of worrys me. they could say that, because tube mags can be reloaded faster than a box mag (according to them), they could say that tube mags provide a greater tacticat advantage for home defense and competitions, and are therefore unnesecary.

[Boomstick12 11]

A few points:

 

1) It is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for the BATFE to ban the manufacture of ANY gun magazine in the USA. The would require a law passed by Congress and signed by the president. The MD20 can't be banned by fiat by the BATFE. The idea that they could do so without a new law being passed is silly.

 

2) the whole BS about destructive devices and the sporting purpose nonsense was created by the GCA of 1968, not the original NFA of 1934. The NFA of 1934 had nothing about DDs.

 

3)Unfortunatly, the NRA can't force the BATFE to do ANYTHING. The NRA opposes this sporting purpose ban- but they don't run the BATFE. They can't force congress to change the import regs either. They may be working on something behind the scenes and we don't know about it (or not). Who knows. Damning them because they have only had one article about it their mag is pointless.

 

4) The stupid study specifically said shotgun box magazines can be sporting:

 

"In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between

integral tube magazines and removable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading,

reloading, and firing of ammunition. For example, "speed loaders" are available for shotguns

with tube-type magazines. These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells

and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a

detachable magazine."

 

This was pulled from page 10 of the stupid study, and can be seen here:

 

http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf

 

Just because the Saiga 12 takes a detachable box mag does not mean it will be banned according to their own words.

 

Yeah, I don't think a 5 rounder worries them. A 20 round drum does. And the fact that a motivated individual could carry 4 or 5 of them at a time.

[Boomstick12 11]

Remember, S12's have been around for a WHILE. Then, Mike gave us the 20 rd drum, and youtube gave us people using them. Make no mistake, the drum put S12's on the map for the ATF. They don't like drums for some reason.

[Xitesmai 1]

The above poster is correct that the GCA of 68 is the issue....sort of.

 

The NFA of 34 and the GCA of 68 (which modified the NFA of 34) are known as the Federal Firearms Laws Titles I & II codified as Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the U.S.C. The terminology of a destructive devices was stated in section 5845 - Definitions subsection F segment 2...quoted below

 

"(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one- half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;"

 

The term "Secretary" refers to the legal officer who has oversight of enforcing the law...i.e. the Attorney General.

 

However the point of whether its was NFA 34 or GCA 68 is moot...Its all Ch. 44 Title 18 of the U.S.C., and that you can challenge in court as Unconstitutional however finding a judge to make that ruling would be near impossible.

 

And the study, IMHO, is nothing but a gateway to a "definition" of a "sporting-features" of a shotgun.