socom688 217 Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Conceal Carry a Draco Pistol if you are worried about gunman with body armor but i would just suggest carrying a compact .45 ACP. I have the .45 in my avatar, but I can only conceal it with heavy clothes; I'd have to wear a trench coat to conceal a Draco lol Plenty of good advice, thanks for the responses! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salt1219 176 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I own a FN 5.7 and i haven't tested it on armor. what i can tell you is it shoots great but ammo can be hard to find if your not shopping online. i also love that it holds 20 rounds one more note i forgot to mention, the 5.7 is a bit bulky for conceal and carry. Edited July 23, 2012 by Salt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I own a FN 5.7 and i haven't tested it on armor. what i can tell you is it shoots great but ammo can be hard to find if your not shopping online. i also love that it holds 20 rounds one more note i forgot to mention, the 5.7 is a bit bulky for conceal and carry. Do you conceal carry yours? I was looking at the size, and have had second thoughts due to that factor. I am only 5'9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
belt fed frog 56 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Pistol + AP ammo in said pistol = Federal Crime I know of several AP pistol bullets designed to defeat soft "armor" none legal for a civilian to own ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm Read the entire article. Notice the damage done in the modelling clay even when the armor works? Nasty.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Pistol + AP ammo in said pistol = Federal Crime I know of several AP pistol bullets designed to defeat soft "armor" none legal for a civilian to own ! I think it is legal to own. FFL dealers can't sell it and no more can be imported or manufactured for civilians, but what is out there can be bought and sold. At least that is how I have always understood it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pony_express1973 183 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 If it were me, I'd be more interested in capacity for a carry gun rather than penetration in regards to defending against a body-armored active shooter. A good double stack pistol, 12-20 rounds of either 9mm/.40/.45 cal plus a reload gives you the firepower needed to lay into an armored foe until you either defeat the armor or get in around the edges (head/neck/arms/groin). The FN 5.7 has 20 round mags that can be changed to 30 rounders so capacity is not an issue there and with a box of 50 rounds running at about 20 to 25 dollars ammo is not to expensive either. i have one coming to my FFL as we speak so I will be able to give a range report soon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I gotta ask, why is it that my 5.45 pistol thread got shit on (locked by MAKC) becaue the potenial of the ATF prohibiting surplus 5.45 ammo due to it's "armor piercing capabilties" and this thread is "GTF" ? Honestly the premis of my thread getting shut down was shit...and I think this thread is great..but I see nobody crying here. What did I miss? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 http://www.theboxotr.../docs/bot15.htm Read the entire article. Notice the damage done in the modelling clay even when the armor works? Nasty.... Damn, those are some serious wounds. I wonder why he didn't use .45 ball? I am sure the ball would have done more damage to the clay than the JHP. Sounds good pony, post up the results! And poolingmyignorance, I don't have an answer for you. I didn't even look at your thread. Maybe it was the premise? I am asking because I was mainly wondering if that psychotic piece of shot Holmes could have been stopped before 12 innocents died with a pistol that is capable of piercing armor and I only knew of the 5.7 having those capabilities. Also, I know the 5.7 round isn't going anywhere and wont be prohibited by the BATF so maybe that was another reason? I can only speculate.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
belt fed frog 56 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 HOG76 , Read it very carefully ! I said IN a pistol =Crime !! I said nothing about possession of AP and a pistol that can use it . i make it a point to never get cross wise of this law in any way shape or form . i own a number of AP pistol slugs from the original Ny clad all the way to modern Monolithic brass slugs None loaded in live rounds even if it is a caliber i do not own ! The jacket used in the "Box of Truth" article is Nam era fragmentation vest it is Ballistic Nylon not Kevlar or Specroline (sic) and the design is very different internally add to the fact that Nylon breaks down over time and you get the results they did ! NIJ sets the cavity depth at 44 mm (just less than 2" ) before major internal damage is done , The Europeans set cavity depth at 25 mm (just over 1") as acceptable max for soft armor trauma . You get hit it is going to hurt Big Time but your chance of survival is Much higher than un armored we can agree on that point ,yes ? Link to the history of Ballistic protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 the 5.7 is a worthless piece of stuffing without the original ammunition designed for it. you can no longer buy any of the origianal ammunition for it unless you want to pay collectors prices. It was a great idea for a service role weapon. It just didn't stack up. Too bad. It would be a great little round for a remmington raider or a hair dresser in the army. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I gotta ask, why is it that my 5.45 pistol thread got shit on (locked by MAKC) becaue the potenial of the ATF prohibiting surplus 5.45 ammo due to it's "armor piercing capabilties" and this thread is "GTF" ? Honestly the premis of my thread getting shut down was shit...and I think this thread is great..but I see nobody crying here. What did I miss? The really cheap Russian surplus 7.62x39, steel core/steel jacket just like 5.45 Russian surplus 7N6, is no longer allowed to be imported is because it met the definition of being armor piercing handgun ammunition due to 'handguns' like Dracos and such being chambered in 7.62x39. The definition of armor piercing ammo is not by effectiveness but by construction. If a bullet is comprised of just one single type of material, in this case steel, then it is considered AP by legal definition (there is much debate over all-copper bullets, as well). Yes, regular lead core 7.62x39 will penetrate a kevlar vest just as well as the steel core... but nonetheless thats the reason behind it no longer being available. The concern is that if someone goes and starts producing a 5.45 'handgun', then all the 7N6 will be no longer be allowed for import, effectively killing the only major advantage it has over any other caliber... its super low cost. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I gotta ask, why is it that my 5.45 pistol thread got shit on (locked by MAKC) becaue the potenial of the ATF prohibiting surplus 5.45 ammo due to it's "armor piercing capabilties" and this thread is "GTF" ? Honestly the premis of my thread getting shut down was shit...and I think this thread is great..but I see nobody crying here. What did I miss? we can no longer purchase the good ammo for the 5.7x28. the good shit got banned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Just keep hitting the same spot 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I gotta ask, why is it that my 5.45 pistol thread got shit on (locked by MAKC) becaue the potenial of the ATF prohibiting surplus 5.45 ammo due to it's "armor piercing capabilties" and this thread is "GTF" ? Honestly the premis of my thread getting shut down was shit...and I think this thread is great..but I see nobody crying here. What did I miss? we can no longer purchase the good ammo for the 5.7x28. the good shit got banned. I was refering to the 9x25mm Conceal Carry a Draco Pistol if you are worried about gunman with body armor but i would just suggest carrying a compact .45 ACP. I have the .45 in my avatar, but I can only conceal it with heavy clothes; I'd have to wear a trench coat to conceal a Draco lol Plenty of good advice, thanks for the responses! I've heard a laptop bag works well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I gotta ask, why is it that my 5.45 pistol thread got shit on (locked by MAKC) becaue the potenial of the ATF prohibiting surplus 5.45 ammo due to it's "armor piercing capabilties" and this thread is "GTF" ? Honestly the premis of my thread getting shut down was shit...and I think this thread is great..but I see nobody crying here. What did I miss? we can no longer purchase the good ammo for the 5.7x28. the good shit got banned. I was refering to the 9x25mm Conceal Carry a Draco Pistol if you are worried about gunman with body armor but i would just suggest carrying a compact .45 ACP. I have the .45 in my avatar, but I can only conceal it with heavy clothes; I'd have to wear a trench coat to conceal a Draco lol Plenty of good advice, thanks for the responses! I've heard a laptop bag works well. Now that's thinking outside the box, at least for me. I usually travel light, just my car keys, wallet, cell phone and my LCP when I go out and just put them in my pockets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I gotta ask, why is it that my 5.45 pistol thread got shit on (locked by MAKC) becaue the potenial of the ATF prohibiting surplus 5.45 ammo due to it's "armor piercing capabilties" and this thread is "GTF" ? Honestly the premis of my thread getting shut down was shit...and I think this thread is great..but I see nobody crying here. What did I miss? we can no longer purchase the good ammo for the 5.7x28. the good shit got banned. I was refering to the 9x25mm Conceal Carry a Draco Pistol if you are worried about gunman with body armor but i would just suggest carrying a compact .45 ACP. I have the .45 in my avatar, but I can only conceal it with heavy clothes; I'd have to wear a trench coat to conceal a Draco lol Plenty of good advice, thanks for the responses! I've heard a laptop bag works well. Now that's thinking outside the box, at least for me. I usually travel light, just my car keys, wallet, cell phone and my LCP when I go out and just put them in my pockets. sometimes barnes and nobel are scarry at night. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Voltia 375 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 From what I understand, if you shoot someone in an armored vest, they are not going to like it. Most cops that take hits in the vest get knocked down, wind out of them, and get dragged off by their buddies to recover. If this dude had caught any pistol round in the vest, he most probably would have staggered or fallen, allowing someone to rush him and either demand surrender, or, more likely, put one in his head. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I gotta ask, why is it that my 5.45 pistol thread got shit on (locked by MAKC) becaue the potenial of the ATF prohibiting surplus 5.45 ammo due to it's "armor piercing capabilties" and this thread is "GTF" ? Honestly the premis of my thread getting shut down was shit...and I think this thread is great..but I see nobody crying here. What did I miss? we can no longer purchase the good ammo for the 5.7x28. the good shit got banned. I was refering to the 9x25mm Conceal Carry a Draco Pistol if you are worried about gunman with body armor but i would just suggest carrying a compact .45 ACP. I have the .45 in my avatar, but I can only conceal it with heavy clothes; I'd have to wear a trench coat to conceal a Draco lol Plenty of good advice, thanks for the responses! I've heard a laptop bag works well. Now that's thinking outside the box, at least for me. I usually travel light, just my car keys, wallet, cell phone and my LCP when I go out and just put them in my pockets. sometimes barnes and nobel are scarry at night. Can't say much for Barnes and Nobels, but the Starbucks around here has some shady hippie looking characters! Lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 A vest covers the torso, not head, neck, legs, arms, hands so you still have a large target that can be damaged by standard expanding pistol ammunition. The major wounding effect of a handgun is typically through blood loss (unless you are lucky enough to hit the central nervous system) where the vest prevents tissue disruption that leads to said blood loss. It doesn't make it painless to get hit and a well placed shot in a shooter's hand, arm, head, shoulder or neck can render them ineffective with their weapon. Carrying self defense ammo that will penetrate through 3 people is not a good idea unless you like giving away your past and future life's earnings in civil litigation. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 A vest covers the torso, not head, neck, legs, arms, hands so you still have a large target that can be damaged by standard expanding pistol ammunition. The major wounding effect of a handgun is typically through blood loss (unless you are lucky enough to hit the central nervous system) where the vest prevents tissue disruption that leads to said blood loss. It doesn't make it painless to get hit and a well placed shot in a shooter's hand, arm, head, shoulder or neck can render them ineffective with their weapon. Carrying self defense ammo that will penetrate through 3 people is not a good idea unless you like giving away your past and future life's earnings in civil litigation. And in all reality, this is the truth. The draco/ ar pistol is cute..but yea over penetration is a motherfucker..now they do make some frangible ammo for those calibers too.. 30rnds is pretty attractive..aside from the wieght and bulk. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun12 205 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I wouldn't mind at all having a Draco inside of a laptop bag for my CCW. Although i wouldn't know what to do if someone asked if they could use my laptop. "Oh sorry, i don't have a laptop, this is just my AK". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I wouldn't mind at all having a Draco inside of a laptop bag for my CCW. Although i wouldn't know what to do if someone asked if they could use my laptop. "Oh sorry, i don't have a laptop, this is just my AK". They make some large bags, and a piece of hard foam keeps the profile low, and the bag rigid enough it can be accessed easily. Not that i've tried... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I wouldn't mind at all having a Draco inside of a laptop bag for my CCW. Although i wouldn't know what to do if someone asked if they could use my laptop. "Oh sorry, i don't have a laptop, this is just my AK". "Sorry, it's a work laptop." Solved. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) How about just a quality firearm in 9, 40, 45, quality ammo and a lot of practice. What happens if...same situation but without armor. There you are with your gun and AP ammo ....same thing happens and you shoot the guy but the bullet doesnt hit bone and goes right through, hitting another person. Then what? Infact lets add another ccw holder. So there you are again, perp walks in, walks past a few rows, throws a smoke nade and starts shooting. As he does a ccw holder gets up (from the row the perp past) and proceeds to draw his weapon. At the same time you are doing the same and there through the smoke you see what looks like two shooters. In the panic of the situation the other ccw holdet sees you. Who do you shoot first? Do you continue going after the second guy? My point is this was just a fubar situation that had no real good ending. You cant be prepared for all situations at all times and AP ammo will not make up for training. Edited July 24, 2012 by Arik 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 There is a very simple alternative. Either a 357 magnum, or 7.62 x 25. Them tokarev's are NASTY! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Venia 249 Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 How much armor can the FN 5.7x28mm round pierce? ...or, more importantly..... Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? ...is that about a wood chuck? This place is crazy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jwulf 179 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 How much wood could a woodchuck upchuck if a woodchuck could upchuck wood? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Hello Box o' Truth did a test on a couple of Kevlar NATO helmets and a bunch of handguns to test penetration.The test was conducted at about 25 feet as I recall. They tested every handgun they could lay their hands on, (don't recall specifically if they had a 5.7 or not but I would guess they did)including a 6" .357 w/ the hottest handloads they dared to shoot through it. The .357 put a dent in the front side of the helmet, the best of the lot at that point. Then they shot it with a 7.62x25 Tokarev with mil-surp ammo. It completely penetrated the first side and put a substantial dent in the far side of the helmet. Concensus was that the wearer's brains would be jelly. The Box o' Truth guys were amazed. They thought the .357 was gonna be the winner, or maybe the 5.7 if they had one. They had heard about the legendary penetrating ability of the Tok's, and the myth was proven true. FWIW..... Guido in Houston 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Syndicate 812 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq8G4tZbMmw 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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