XXXSilverXXX 11 Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Two to heart(CNS) one to head, rinse and repeat... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Two to heart(CNS) one to head, rinse and repeat... Well for those of us who aren't super badasses like you, simply shooting center mass until the threat stops is a better idea. And also easier to defend in court. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 I was taught to shoot by my family first, then re-educated at Parris Island. Train often. You only get out what you put in. The less trigger time you have, the worse your shot placement will likely be, and in a SD/HD scenario, I dont want to miss and risk hitting the lady behind him walking with her kids. Criminals are opportunistic predators, and I want every advantage I can to make sure I come out alive. Center of mass is the best choice. I would strongly suggest you dont take a headshot, unless your foe is wearing some sort of armor, or hopped up on meth and still pursuing you after you dump a few in his chest. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 well in the 50s if you watched TV Roy and Kimosabe would have taught you to shoot the gun out of their hand at a dead run on the back of a horse, I don't use that one much I don't have a horse. yippie kay yay mother.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 You don't shoot to kill. You don't shoot to wound. You shoot to stop. Never stop shooting until the threat is stopped. And never shoot after the threat is stopped. Don't get tunnel vision. The threat you just stopped may not be the only threat. As soon as that threat is stopped, scan your surroundings and reload. And be aware that how you answer questions after the event will have consequences. "Why did you shoot him?" You say, "I was in fear for my life." Any other answer can make you a murderer. "How many shots did you fire?" You say, "I don't remember." Any other answer can make you a liar. Same for any other specifics. "How far away was he?" "I'm not sure." "How long did the fight last?" "I'm not sure." It's not just that you're covering your own ass. Our perceptions change in life-or-death situations. What seems like a minute may only be a few seconds. You think you only fired 3 or 4 rounds but you shot your gun empty. When you say you're not sure or you don't remember you're actually telling the truth. And the truth better be the only thing you tell after a shooting. If you're caught in the smallest lie you're probably going to prison. And all of these things I say come straight from Mas Ayoob. Nobody on the planet knows more about the use of lethal force (and what happens after) than Ayoob. You finally said something I disagree with. Say NOTHING. Anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law. What you say can not help you in a court of law. Therefore, there is no valid reason for you to talk to the cops. That said, I'm shooting until the threat is stopped. I have no number of rounds in mind for this. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 ...and God help you if you have to shoot a black youth breaking in your home. You're going to jail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XXXSilverXXX 11 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 Two to heart(CNS) one to head, rinse and repeat... Well for those of us who aren't super badasses like you, simply shooting center mass until the threat stops is a better idea. And also easier to defend in court. Hey man, hey... Dad drilled in into me, also it helps that I carry a custom pistol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 Hey man, hey...Dad drilled in into me Whaaaat? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 That certainly explains why you're the sort of adult who thinks a "custom pistol" and a neoprene mask make you a ninja. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 Brother was a copper/firearms instructor and always advocated double tapping and stressed "never shoot to wound in a gun fight". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 The use of a firearm in a non-military situation is a projection of your will. Your will should be to stop the aggression and obtain the compliance of the aggressor. Training allows you to rapidly administer your will at the proper time, place and on the proper target. Macbeau sends... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doug Hartley 526 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 I was trained as a Police Officer in the 70's and also took the FBI Firearms Instructor class. As a civilian I would operate the same way which is to shoot until the threat is stopped. No fancy shooting in a gunfight, aim for the biggest target, generally the center of mass, and concentrate on getting hits. A Mozambique may look cool on paper, but might be seen as intent to kill in a courtroom. Once the threat is stopped and you are assured that there are no other threats its not a bad idea to give the guy some first aid as well. For me it is important to not be seen as a cold blooded killer, especially since I have been down that road before. Shooting someone is the last resort when all else has failed and should not be taken lightly. Do only what you have to do and no more, it may make the years of regret easier to live with. Doug Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) ...might seen as intent to kill in a courtroom. This cannot be stressed enough. Even when deadly force is justified, intent to kill can get you charged with murder. You are only justified to stop the threat. If the assailant dies as a result of your justified self defense, then that is on him. If you express or indicate intent to kill, it turns around on you. You don't shoot to kill. You don't shoot to wound. You shoot to stop. Never stop shooting until the threat is stopped. And never shoot after the threat is stopped. Don't get tunnel vision. The threat you just stopped may not be the only threat. As soon as that threat is stopped, scan your surroundings and reload. And be aware that how you answer questions after the event will have consequences. "Why did you shoot him?" You say, "I was in fear for my life." Any other answer can make you a murderer. "How many shots did you fire?" You say, "I don't remember." Any other answer can make you a liar. Same for any other specifics. "How far away was he?" "I'm not sure." "How long did the fight last?" "I'm not sure." It's not just that you're covering your own ass. Our perceptions change in life-or-death situations. What seems like a minute may only be a few seconds. You think you only fired 3 or 4 rounds but you shot your gun empty. When you say you're not sure or you don't remember you're actually telling the truth. And the truth better be the only thing you tell after a shooting. If you're caught in the smallest lie you're probably going to prison. And all of these things I say come straight from Mas Ayoob. Nobody on the planet knows more about the use of lethal force (and what happens after) than Ayoob. You finally said something I disagree with. Say NOTHING. Anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law. What you say can not help you in a court of law. Therefore, there is no valid reason for you to talk to the cops. That said, I'm shooting until the threat is stopped. I have no number of rounds in mind for this. You think saying nothing could not be used against you? "Officer Smith, did you ask the defendant any questions at the scene?" "Yes, first I asked him what happened." "And Officer Smith, how did the defendant answer this question?" "The defendant was completely uncooperative. He refused to answer any questions. All he would say is I want my lawyer." I promise you there are many jurors who would see this as evidence of guilt. Anything you say or don't say will be used against you. I defer to Ayoob, who knows more than I (or anyone else on the planet) about self defense cases. Anyone who owns a firearm for defense should study his work. Edited May 3, 2014 by Darth Saigus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 ...might seen as intent to kill in a courtroom. This cannot be stressed enough. Even when deadly force is justified, intent to kill can get you charged with murder. You are only justified to stop the threat. If the assailant dies as a result of your justified self defense, then that is on him. If you express or indicate intent to kill, it turns around on you. You don't shoot to kill. You don't shoot to wound. You shoot to stop. Never stop shooting until the threat is stopped. And never shoot after the threat is stopped. Don't get tunnel vision. The threat you just stopped may not be the only threat. As soon as that threat is stopped, scan your surroundings and reload. And be aware that how you answer questions after the event will have consequences. "Why did you shoot him?" You say, "I was in fear for my life." Any other answer can make you a murderer. "How many shots did you fire?" You say, "I don't remember." Any other answer can make you a liar. Same for any other specifics. "How far away was he?" "I'm not sure." "How long did the fight last?" "I'm not sure." It's not just that you're covering your own ass. Our perceptions change in life-or-death situations. What seems like a minute may only be a few seconds. You think you only fired 3 or 4 rounds but you shot your gun empty. When you say you're not sure or you don't remember you're actually telling the truth. And the truth better be the only thing you tell after a shooting. If you're caught in the smallest lie you're probably going to prison. And all of these things I say come straight from Mas Ayoob. Nobody on the planet knows more about the use of lethal force (and what happens after) than Ayoob. You finally said something I disagree with. Say NOTHING. Anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law. What you say can not help you in a court of law. Therefore, there is no valid reason for you to talk to the cops. That said, I'm shooting until the threat is stopped. I have no number of rounds in mind for this. You think saying nothing could not be used against you? "Officer Smith, did you ask the defendant any questions at the scene?" "Yes, first I asked him what happened." "And Officer Smith, how did the defendant answer this question?" "The defendant was completely uncooperative. He refused to answer any questions. All he would say is I want my lawyer." I promise you there are many jurors who would see this as evidence of guilt. Anything you say or don't say will be used against you. I defer to Ayoob, who knows more than I (or anyone else on the planet) about self defense cases. Anyone who owns a firearm for defense should study his work. Ok... He basically said the same. I'll answer any questions 24 hrs after representation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) Ok... He basically said the same. I'll answer any questions 24 hrs after representation.That is a misrepresentation. He said that you should give basic information to the cops so they understand you were the victim. And so that they don't miss (or misunderstand) any evidence. I just want people to understand that if you refuse to talk at all the cops will assume you're guilty of something and that assumption will be difficult to change. You do what you want in that situation. But to my original point about answering specific questions such as how many shots were fired, here is Ayoob speaking on the mental affects and unreliability of memory in life and death situations. And the danger of answering specific questions. Edited May 3, 2014 by Darth Saigus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 when you have to shoot, you make it count and be collected as possible. cool heads really prevail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
garnaz 215 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Ok... He basically said the same. I'll answer any questions 24 hrs after representation.That is a misrepresentation. He said that you should give basic information to the cops so they understand you were the victim. And so that they don't miss (or misunderstand) any evidence.I just want people to understand that if you refuse to talk at all the cops will assume you're guilty of something and that assumption will be difficult to change.You do what you want in that situation.But to my original point about answering specific questions such as how many shots were fired, here is Ayoob speaking on the mental affects and unreliability of memory in life and death situations. And the danger of answering specific questions.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RC0yLWnusU Wasn't the 5th amendment created for these instances? Once you plead the 5th the questions are SUPPOSE to stop. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) Asking for an attorney before answering questions is not taking the 5th Amendment. It is actually the 6th Amendment that guarantees the right to Counsel.And yes, once you have asked for a lawyer the questions must stop until you get a lawyer. But the police will certainly continue the investigation and unless you live in a fantasy world you know the police tend to look for evidence that supports their opinion on who is at fault.And the responding officers are going to testify at your trial if there is one. Seems only common sense that you'll want them to see you as the victim and not the aggressor.Giving cooperation (while declining to answer specifics) is your best chance of the police seeing things your way. And the initial investigation may lead to the conclusion that you were justified and no charges filed.I don't know about you but I'm hoping I never have to defend my life with deadly force. But if that horrible situation does occur, I would prefer not to be dragged through the "justice" system for months to prove my innocence. Edited May 4, 2014 by Darth Saigus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XXXSilverXXX 11 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 That certainly explains why you're the sort of adult who thinks a "custom pistol" and a neoprene mask make you a ninja. You know it's kinda sad if that's a personal attack, did I mention a mask or a ninja? No I just gave my input. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 2 in the chest, 1 in the head or pelvic region, and follow up shots center mass on the way down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Two to heart(CNS) one to head, rinse and repeat... Well for those of us who aren't super badasses like you, simply shooting center mass until the threat stops is a better idea. And also easier to defend in court.Hey man, hey... Dad drilled in into me, also it helps that I carry a custom pistol. You can get a monkey to drive a Ferrari, even though is driving a Ferrari its still a monkey. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Carry a self defense policy that covers bail and attorney fees. Shut up and expect to lose your gun and also expect go to jail. Keep cool and know that this will take a long time. LEO's are not your friend when you shoot somebody, no matter what they say. With the exception of a few choice words implying you were afraid for your life, say nothing until your attorney is there. We do not carry to kill . We carry to protect our own life. Be safe out there 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Number one thing you can do is live in a self defense friendly state. Ive heard of lots of people getting in to trouble and if they had been in another state likley that wouldn't have been the case. I've sadly heard of people in my home state getting to walk after very questionable shoots. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted May 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) 2 in the chest, 1 in the head or pelvic region, and follow up shots center mass on the way down. Interesting. I was recently told to do exactly that (two center mass, one hip shot) because of the large number of home invasions performed by men wearing body armor. Edited May 4, 2014 by DLT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 2 in the chest, 1 in the head or pelvic region, and follow up shots center mass on the way down.Interesting. I was recently told to do exactly that (two center mass, one hip shot) because of the large number of home invasions performed by men wearing body armor. Only problem with the groin shot is that it doesn't incapacitate the perp completely from following up with additional shots. Try for the head shot, light out, but playing it safe I would also go for the groin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 We had an officer-involved shooting case here a few years ago. An experienced officer with a trainee responded to a "man with a gun" call. When they arrived and got out of the car, a man with (I think) a .30 Carbine shot the officer several times. As he went down, the trainee shot the bad guy and hit him in the hip with one shot from a .45 Glock. There endeth the problem, the bad guy dropped like a stone because his hip joint was shattered. Kind of a "lucky shot", but if you take out the support structure, the body can not stand regardless of the adrenaline or drugs in the system. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 We had an officer-involved shooting case here a few years ago. An experienced officer with a trainee responded to a "man with a gun" call. When they arrived and got out of the car, a man with (I think) a .30 Carbine shot the officer several times. As he went down, the trainee shot the bad guy and hit him in the hip with one shot from a .45 Glock. There endeth the problem, the bad guy dropped like a stone because his hip joint was shattered. Kind of a "lucky shot", but if you take out the support structure, the body can not stand regardless of the adrenaline or drugs in the system. What was the follow on actions to completely subdue the individual from further action against the police officer? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
breid1970 327 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 I said it once and I will say it again. Failure to stop drill. Two center mass 1 to the head. If its good enough for Marine Corps Security forces its good enough for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 I said it once and I will say it again. Failure to stop drill. Two center mass 1 to the head. If its good enough for Marine Corps Security forces its good enough for me. That not just USMC Security Forces...thats the standard we train to annually. Semper Fi, Gunny NR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 I shot to the is down to drop anyone especially with a 45. Maybe not out down for sure. Everyone saying the Mozambique drill have you even fired under life and death? Cause three to the bread basket would be much easier and likley to hit their mark. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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