Vultite 57 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) Alright guys, i normally don't post up articles and whatnot, but this caught my eye.......kinda scary and neat at the same time, i'm hoping they televise the first experiments, just in case something bad happens.......... Fast version...1 in 50million+ odds of a global killing failure.........like winning a powerball lottery....I dunno about you, but taking a risk of blowing up a lab...not so bad, but global destruction? MEYRIN, Switzerland - The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August. But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump? Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN — some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC. "Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans. David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets. "If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said. The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground. The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings. Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass. The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings. The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions — far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience. The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million — long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries. By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions. Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet." One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed. On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case. The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research. The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August. In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago. And so far, Earth has survived. "The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN. Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays. Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes — collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars. But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth. Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field — and eventually threaten the planet. Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking. As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down. When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space. Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets — to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch. The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second. Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis. Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit. The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring. "There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans. Edited June 29, 2008 by Vultite Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Didn't these scientists learn anything from the movie The Mist? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 We are so sly. Why can't we get the world we know to be, to actually be any better. I guess curiosity, and the unknown will always be more interesting the the dull world we already know. Everybody is looking for something. The Mist. LOL. Exactly. I'm still waiting for zombies. I guess this may happen first. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted June 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 just seems like they are really pushing the edge of what should be messed with....i'm all for science, but i even think this is crazy... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Well, I make no claims of scientific genius, but when you consider that no matter how good at something any of us is, or how big or how strong, or how smart, that the odds are almost guaranteed that someone, somewhere is better. So it could be reasoned that there are other dimensions or places in this dimension that support some kind of life, an assumption that we have the monopoly is rather arrogant. I'm not saying anything on the order of "The Mist", but something counter intuitive to our way of life could very well exist somewhere. Also, could we not do something cataclysmic, even though not destroying the planet? If we were to screw up and perhaps shift the Earths axis, or magnetically do some damage, as magnetic fields have a lot to do with much of what happens here, we could throw out the weather patterns and bring in an ice age, or something else. I think that would qualify as cataclysmic. I read the article to my wife, and she said something about Pandoras Box. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 I believe the same idea was begun in Waxahachie, TX some years ago. The land was E/D'd (Eminent Domained-can't miss an opportunity to do that) the project rocked along for a couple of years, then the $$$$$$$$$$$$ was yanked from the budget. Don't know the particulars, but I do know it is impossible for man to actually eliminate anything on the planet, currently. Stuff can be converted, but not actually eliminated. Messing with the core fundamentals of molecules gets a bit dicey, I think. -Maybe I'm just a puss........ JMHO, guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Curiosity killed the cat. End of story. We will be the instruments of our own demise. Cheery thought. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Isnt that kinda what happened in the INTRO to the game HALF LIFE?!?!?!? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocinante 100 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 There was the same thought and fear before they exploded the first atomic bomb. I HOPE in the 63 years since scientist have a better understanding of physics. I sure the hell do not. Being told the entire freaking universe started from a dot the size of a single atom and that single seed came from ?????? doesn't dent my noggin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kwicko 8 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 There was the same thought and fear before they exploded the first atomic bomb. I HOPE in the 63 years since scientist have a better understanding of physics. I sure the hell do not. Being told the entire freaking universe started from a dot the size of a single atom and that single seed came from ?????? doesn't dent my noggin. And the same fear when they were about to test the first hydrogen bomb; several physicists estimated that there was about a 3% chance that the intense heat released into the atmosphere would ignite the nitrogen in the atmosphere, which would then continue in a chain-reaction "burnover". There's a cheery thought... hey, it was only a 3-in-a-hundred shot! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted June 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Yea, more i think about it, the more it bothers me because they have our lives in their hands, and there're playing russian roulet with it.....i probably didn't spell everything right, but i dun care Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Leo.Kermes 1 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 I don't know, a post apocalyptical inter-dimensional world could be fun given enough ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AgentLQ 3 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Over Reacting. Fusion Power is the future! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 BOOM! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcraig 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Magic 8-ball says..........................................................Not likely!. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 I don't know, a post apocalyptical inter-dimensional world could be fun given enough ammo. I wonder if full autos are unrestricted in said world. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 You realize that shortly following the invention of the horseless carriage we all thought that you would go insane if you exceeded 60 mph, don't you? 1911 p.s. - I'm ready either way. Do your deal and let's see what happens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Dunno, i always tought something is bound to go wrong when they fire up that big-ass ring. Not to mention the electricity bill O_o Either way, if that thing ends up opening a gate for the Combine(cough sorry too much videogames) to swarm through, i have enough ammo for all of them! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Dunno, i always tought something is bound to go wrong when they fire up that big-ass ring. Like that old Jodie Foster movie, Contact? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 You realize that shortly following the invention of the horseless carriage we all thought that you would go insane if you exceeded 60 mph, don't you? They were right about that one, though.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
d0lphin2 0 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 A gateway for the small gray guys and lizard men to come waltzing in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acercanto 6 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Well, at least they put it in a good spot to contain anything that comes through the yet-to-be-formed apocalyptic chasm, being partially in Switzerland and all. Although, on the other hand, the other half of it's in France, and they'll probably surrender the earth before the Swiss can even get sighted in. Acer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Well, at least they put it in a good spot to contain anything that comes through the yet-to-be-formed apocalyptic chasm, being partially in Switzerland and all. Although, on the other hand, the other half of it's in France, and they'll probably surrender the earth before the Swiss can even get sighted in. Acer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shellshock1918 1 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Isnt that kinda what happened in the INTRO to the game HALF LIFE?!?!?!? YES. ZOMBIE TIME. In all seriousness. If these jerk-offs did miscalculate and lets say create a black hole, it would be quick, so quick you wouldn't feel a thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Yeah if you are a believer and are right, you would go to Heaven or Hell, or if we are all wrong and there is nothing, it would be over. Lot of worse ways to go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Isnt that kinda what happened in the INTRO to the game HALF LIFE?!?!?!? YES. ZOMBIE TIME. In all seriousness. If these jerk-offs did miscalculate and lets say create a black hole, it would be quick, so quick you wouldn't feel a thing. It would be quick if that was the case, but since their "safety" is all based on theory like everything else this device is based on....there could be worse things then just a quick ending, like knocking the earth off its axis or ect. But like anything in theory, i guess there's a chance nothing would happen...on both ends... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Well, at least they put it in a good spot to contain anything that comes through the yet-to-be-formed apocalyptic chasm, being partially in Switzerland and all. Although, on the other hand, the other half of it's in France, and they'll probably surrender the earth before the Swiss can even get sighted in. Acer The Swiss will just let them eat all of the French - and THEN - wipe them all out while they are disabled by the gas cramps from the garlic! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaddis 1,689 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Might be a good gateway to jump thru if a certain Presidential candidate gets elected. Hell (at least for gun owners) will be on this side of it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 If these jerk-offs did miscalculate and lets say create a black hole, it would be quick, so quick you wouldn't feel a thing. Actually a black hole would be an agonizingly slow way to go... as you crossed the event horizon, you would stretch towards the singularity... it would also start pulling you faster than the speed of light, and due to relativity would take unimaginably LONG for you to actually reach the center... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlackDog 1 Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 My vote says it isn't going to work right and they'll need another 6 billion dollars to fine tune it. Looks like a 6 billion dollar pork barrel project that is going to be a useless piece of scrap metal in the end. Then they'll want to build the next one around the equator. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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