TapeWorm3 104 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I just want to hear from readers/shooters.What is the obsession with pitcanny rail systems over the entire weapon. They are a solid platform to mount "Accessories" all over but IMHO they are nothing but interference in ease of operation, they get hung up on vegetation and clothing and most of the so called "Accessories" are nothing more than "Bling" Being a Combat Veteran I cannot see having all these items on a weapon even in a close quarter situation. Most of the time an Operator is so focused on the objective they are not going to use half of the items at their disposal. I am not trying to start some flame war I just want to know some honest answers of why people are spending the time, energy, and wealth on what I see as useless "Bling" 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 If you want an answer you probably need to define which accessories you see as useless bling. Does a flashlight count? An aimpoint? A sling mounting point? Lots of things can go on rails. Please be more specific or clarify if you mean anything that can go on a rail. I agree that one probably needs only so many rails. However if one does want to make use of certain accessories having a rail to put them on is pretty nice. Certain accessories that go on rails that IMHO are without question of value include red dot sights and flashlights. One can mount all those on a ultimak tube. Some people find a VFG or AFG to be of use. Rails are nice for mounting those as well. Even if some people do it for "bling," as you call it, so what? The VAST VAST VAST majority of guns will never be used in anger. The vast majority will never even see a carbine course. If someone wants to put stuff on their gun because they think it looks cool, more power to them. I agree if we are talking about a hard use weapon one is well served to think about what they are putting on and why. However if one engages in any good training that tends to correct putting low quality or unneeded accessories on a gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TapeWorm3 104 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) If you want an answer you probably need to define which accessories you see as useless bling. Does a flashlight count? Yes, In real world Situations the flashlight is mounted to your headgear or load bearing device NEVER on the weapon. An aimpoint? Yes, This is a joke of an aiming device when instinctive and proper training result in more favorable results than any sight picture. A sling mounting point? Yes, I have yet to find a true tactical weapon that did not have sling points from the factory. Even if some people do it for "bling," as you call it, so what? The VAST VAST VAST majority of guns will never be used in anger. The vast majority will never even see a carbine course. If someone wants to put stuff on their gun because they think it looks cool, more power to them. I agree if we are talking about a hard use weapon one is well served to think about what they are putting on and why. However if one engages in any good training that tends to correct putting low quality or unneeded accessories on a gun. I agree with you. All my weapons are total utilitarian items and each with their own unique purpose. I just wanted to know if it was for the "Cool Factor" or if the operators were actually planning to use all of what I call "Bling" The problem is with people may need to use their weapon in a manner they intitially did not conceive therefore while trying to turn on flashlights and flash laser beams the end up getting shot. Thanks for your honest opinion. Edited November 12, 2011 by TapeWorm3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I agree that all the extra rails are not necessary. I understand that guys like to "accessorize" their gun and mount and rearrange things. But that's really more for fun than anything else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Most rails really aren't even used. That said, most people probably get thing just in case they want to mount something later. I have one gun with a quad rail system, it will have a red dot and grip. If I would do it over again it would have only one rail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 es, In real world Situations the flashlight is mounted to your headgear or load bearing device NEVER on the weapon. First lest accept your contention of light placement agruendo (we can adress it afterwards). Well now you have assumed real world to be a very narrow field of users with particular equipment. If I hear a crash in the night in my house I likely don't have headgear on or a load bearing device. I need a gun that is ready to go. Civilians are not going on combat mission and thinking they will have the kit and be geared up for such is not very real world IMHO. Now as to where lights get put in the real world. Please inform these gents that there lights are in the wrong place. Or maybe its not a real world situation they are in? What is under this guy's barrel? Whats on this guy's rail? Oh yep, that is a light. Hmm what does this picture have in common with the last one And one more (I could post about a 100K more) Hmm none of those guys had their lights on headgear. They all had them on the gun. You will also have to let all the swat guys I shoot with know that their lights shouldn't be on their guns. Or maybe what they do just isn't real world? What are those little round things under the barrel on these guy's MP5s? Why does Larry Vickers, Haley, Costa, Clint Smith, Awerbuck, etc all run weapon mounted lights and teach people to use them? You should let those guys know they are up in the night. Yes, This is a joke of an aiming device when instinctive and proper training result in more favorable results than any sight picture. Again why is the aimpoint the go to optic for so many experienced well informed shooters? Why even have sights at all? Again I think your argument assumes, without stating the assumption, a very narrow operational envelope. Even within that your contention is questionable. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) operators 10 posts and you're already bitching about what other people put on their guns, as if they sent you the bill for it. Edited November 12, 2011 by Russian Hammer 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VladTepes 160 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 it's funny.. I was with you for a second.. about not needing a collective 70inches of rail up and down the weapon.. but then you started in on the uselessness of things like a weapon mounted light and or reflex sight.... troll away.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TARE 47 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Can I send my bill... I have a railed saiga12 and Mak-90 both utilize the rails for T: Sights/Optics, B: Vertical Fore Grip, L&R: nothing except rail covers. Both the sights and vertical grip help speed up the amount of shots I can put on target in a given time. I'm not going to iraq to fight the good fight, I'm likely going to the range and maybe defending against a home invasion, which is most likely to occur at night or at least low light. I can't imagine holding a flashlight in hand or on my head while I hold a rifle and attempt to secure my household. I like that I can turn off and on my light without sacrificing a firing grip. Say I wanted to turn off my headlight to avoid being detected/ shot myself, that would be considerably more difficult to do in a short time when compared to squeezing a pressure switch or flicking my support hand index finger forward. I don't want to be insulting so please don't take it that way when I guess your a combat experience was prior to conflicts still in effect. Many soldiers have said their is a considerable advantage gained by the implementation of Red-dots ACOGs and Eotech sights as well as vertical fore grips. These haven't been used so heavily at no gain to the operator; considering they are hauling all this stuff at the cost of weight and money. I would guess if those employing the devices didn't see a significant advantage, you'd likely see that they would have removed them or not installed them at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I'm happy with one rail.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TapeWorm3 104 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Okay guys, I asked for discussion. I concede to the flashlight being a useful tool and in all my years have never seen one used mounted on a combat weapon. Thanks to Zambidis for pointing out my error in my earlier comment. I should not have made such statements as in if all my experience was all the experience of the rest of the world. I wanted to hear WHY so many people are putting Pitcanny rails on every square inch of their weapons. I guess that is why everyone has their own tastes and own likes. I know I have mine. I am not trying to say that my way is the right way, it just works for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BpS12 512 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 TW, you're not alone. There's a of people that like bare bones hardware. But there are alot that like to have options as well. Me, I like to have options. Whether or not I use all the rail space available on a system is doubtful. But it's there if needed. I was In Service back when we were duct tapeing lights to our rifles and getting yelled at for it, lol. Same with our LBE, lol. P-Rails are the Molle webbing of weapons, You may not need to use it all, but it's there if you do. Options are a wonderful thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 So you need a bottom rail for a light and a vertical grip, and you need a top rail for an optic. But the side rails are gay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 It seems that if I want a light and a vertical front grip I need the multi rail system. I don't like the feel of it in my hands Without using a vert. front grip though. I don't really like the "look" of a quad-rail either, it just seems needed to hav 2 simple add-ons that accomidate civilian use. I do not like "Bling" on my rifle and I never put extra weight on a rifle to "look cool". It is a reasonable solution. That said, my S-12 would be the only one wearing a multi rail. All others, 7.62x39, .308, and AR do not have rail systems. Just iron sights and minimal weight set up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MaloDave 19 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I put a Gas Tube Rail on the top of my Saiga for a reflex red dot. I needed a bottom rail for a vertical grip and Green Laser. I tried the bolt on type but it was at too much of an angle on the stock forearm. I got a SGM tri-rail forearm grip and everything is fine now. Malodave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I'm very much with you on this Tapeworm. For the life of me I can't figure out if it's the idea that someday, somehow the average citizen gun-owner thinks he's going to be in a tactical situation, an apocalyptic situation, or a defensive situation that will require added gadgetry mounted to a particular weapon that he's going to have on his person at the time. It's a personal choice and not my money, but I see it as so mall-ninja-esque and very often comical. JMHO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fitty% 808 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Well as for me, Im an Iraq and Afghanistan combat vetran also. Seven deployments between the two in the SOF community. So when I see someone refer to "operators" I read very close to what they have to say. Now I am not an "operator" but have trained and spent time talking to them and asking them about the weapon systems they run and the way they perfer to run them. As for the operator Im talking about they are the guys that show "The Unit" was about. All the carbines I saw had rails on them with lights, lasers, sights...ect. It all depends on the person and making it work best for them. I dought I saw two that were the same. As for me I lost the use of my right arm and now have to rig my systems up for left single hand shooting. The quad rails end up helping me out alot for rigging up slings to assist me along with optics. Again its all about what you going to use the gun for ie combat, comp, home def, fun. Im all about function but i think it should also look a little cool but it needs to function best for the "operator". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 My favorite is the scope rings that have Picatinny rails on them at the 12, 3 and 9 o'clock positions so that one can mount a mini red dot, a flashlight and a LASER sight in a nice cluster fuck around the scope...that way you can have all that crap and leave the rest of the sextuplet rail setup for other mall ninja crap. lol 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I'm not much on rails and attachments in most cases. But, the OP seems kinda "gecko"... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
forceflow17 16 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) Serving in Afg right now, my setup follows. Aimpoint T-1, and BUIS on the reciever top rail. VFG on lower rail Peq 15 on top rail Also, whenever I get ahold of a mount, my surefire will be mounted on the right side. Does this leave lots of extra rail space? Yes. However, not everyone is going to place shit in the same spot. As for the remaining rails snagging, rail covers are cheap. Also, curious about something. Has anyone ran a T-1 on a S12, and if so, how well do they hold up to the recoil? Edited November 13, 2011 by forceflow17 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrBoomstick 16 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I ran my comp m4 on my s 12 no issues with it at all. I know that doesn't answer your question directly though. As for attachments i t end to go with an as needed basis i have the sig sauer i-itac on my s 12 its go a hellified bright flashlight on it that can strobe and a laser all easily trigger able from the handle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Well as for me, Im an Iraq and Afghanistan combat vetran also. The OP never stated to be a Combat Vet of either of those AORs and his comments regarding this subject lead me to believe as much. He thinks rail systems are useless as well as Aimpoints and weapon lights. He never mentioned an IR laser, probably never used one. OP, FYI, "Operators" may mount a light to their helmet but it is not to illuminate threats rather for use if someone needs light to read a map or tend to a fallen comrade in the dark. Weapon mounted lights are very powerful and when used with an IR filter, they compliment the Night Vision Device and IR laser for targeting purposes. Also, curious about something. Has anyone ran a T-1 on a S12, and if so, how well do they hold up to the recoil? I run a Comp M3 on my S12 and it has no issues with recoil. My buddy is running a T-1 on an 870 with positive results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sickness 89 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I'm not a huge fan of rails myself. Most of my guns have no pic rails at all, and a few have just a short length here or there. My S12 has a full Chaos extended quad rail and has more rail real estate than the rest of my guns combined. For me, the Chaos quad is less about the rail space and more about the material and weight. I don't like plastic (none of my guns have plastic parts; all metal and wood.. closest I get to plastic is the bakelite grip on my AK74) and I DO like the added weight of the rail on the S12. Keep it heavy to keep the muzzle down while rapid firing buckshot. All that said.. weapon mounted lights are quite useful. Aimpoints have become the standard optic for a reason. Vertical foregrips really do make the weapon more controllable for many users. Does kitting up a gun with all this stuff have disadvantages? Sure. What the user has to decide is if those disadvantages are big enough outweigh the additional utility of these devices. There is only one hard and fast rule for a combat weapon: it should be configured so that its user is maximally effective with it. My wife is a good example. The "standard answer" to what is the best HD gun is a shotgun. But she doesn't handle a shotgun very well. She doesn't like the kick and report and all her mechanics just fall apart when she goes to shoot one. She's tried to "get over it" and she has gotten better, BUT.. she is still far more effective with a pistol caliber carbine. She is more accurate, and just as important, she is more confident with her HK USC. It would be retarded for her to grab a shotgun because of the principle that 12ga is better than .45 ACP. Likewise, if someone finds they can shoot rapid fire more accurately with a VFG, they should have one. If they are faster with a red dot than with irons, they should mount that Aimpoint, etc. At some point, other concerns.. like weight, come into play and you have to find the right balance. And THAT is what a shit load of picatinny rails are all about: allowing the user to configure the weapon as is right for them. This shouldn't even be a thread. It is just that obvious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fitty% 808 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 To MT Predator, if you read what is typed he does say and i quote "Being a Combat Veteran I cannot see having all these items on a weapon". So that does seem like he is saying he is a "combat veteran" but maybe Im still reading it wrong. I agree with you on everything else you said though...lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
menace667 194 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Traditionally I don't jump into these types of "conversations" but here I will address something I read. Flash lights in dark situations are aiming points for bad guys. Taught in any tactical gun training course such as the police academy, swat school, and military pistol courses. So if you place a light on your head or chest that you give the bad guy an awesome target. Secondly, a weapon mounted light, properly done, has a pressure pad or finger access without having to remove a hand from the weapon to allow for strobing so you aren't an easy target with a permanently on light in darkness. A head or LBE mounted light would require you to remove a hand from your weapon, total no no in combat, so you can use your light. Went to Fort Benning in June 2000 and the police academy in 2007 and we utilized lights as distraction art devices as well as illumination devices and your placement doesnt work at all, unless like stated above to read a map. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
defcon 21 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 because im just a regular family guy that has no intentions to deploy to middle east. i mainly accessorize to show off to my friends and family and that's all that matters to me. i build and shoot to have fun. some people are just kill joys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ewoketeer 35 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) I'm not a combat veteran (My hat's off to those who are). Merely a Cold War participant. However, I do read and recognize the utility of hanging a flashlight on the end of a longarm. Unlike a building clearing operation (MOUT), I have to be accountable for every shot I fire. I also don't want a case of "friendly fire" on one of my family members. It is vastly better to shine a flashlight in their eyes than a lead lobotomy... Edited November 15, 2011 by EWOKETEER Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eastTXhunter 1 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Flashlight on the front is important. I have never seen someone use one on there head or vest. I use meapon mounted flashlight on all my guns, they are useless at night without one. In addition my rails are crucial to using my PEQ 2a. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fitty% 808 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Well as MT Predator said, you would have the light on your helmet(like the surefire LEDs that attach to a mitch) or to have some kind of light on their gear for looking at maps and tending to casualties. Most light that is run is in the IR spectrum because not alot of the insergents are running around at night with nods(nvg's) on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I am trying to find a new light, I need one that is bright, lightweight, and can take abuse. Any suggestions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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