Parts count for saiga 12 has changed

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Since there hasn't been much definitive info in detail (from BATF), regarding exactly what constitutes a muzzle device vs muzzle attachment... and it's negligible whether or not some brakes also might serve as flash hiders (It's a freakin shotgun people, not a high powered rifle that a "flash hider" will actually work on...), I choose to cover all the bases, and make sure anything I screw on the end of my gun (except factory chokes, which don't IMO fall under the terms muzzle devices, brakes, or hiders) is a US made part. I also choose to keep my domestic parts count above the legal minimum, so I don't have to depend on mags for compliance.

 

Only thing I see this new letter doing is adding the 'puck' to the list. The only Saiga shotgun I have that's close on the 922R parts count is my first one (in my avatar with real Bulgy AK wood stock set and PG). Since I used all imported wood on that build, I had a custom stainless "op rod" US made to put in it. At the time, back in 2005, that was being considered the gas piston. Now I'm still ok on the count because I added a Tromix puck to the mix long ago. I also have a Tromix 74 style muzzle brake on it.

So my 922R count for that gun is as follows....

1. Tapco hammer,

2. trigger,

3. disconnect

4. Tromix brake

5. Tromix puck

6. US made stainless "op rod" made by a guy who used to turn them out to order, but no longer makes them.

 

If anything, the addition of the 'puck' has made compliance actually easier in my case, because they have now also added the 'op rod' to the list... according to the asterisk placed next to it in the new letter. This will boost the market for US made op rods like the HD rods I've been installing for folks on their bolt carriers in for re-profiling and polishing.

 

If you have a US stock, PG, and / or HGs on your shotgun, in addition to all the easy parts like FCG, puck, and US brake... compliance should be easy to obtain.

 

Now as far as the question about what invokes 922R?

1. IMO it's a good idea to assume that as soon as you plug a mag in the gun that holds 6 or more rounds, it's time to be concerned about 922R.

2. Put a folding stock on there....the same applies.

3. Bolt on one of those Stock / PG 'conversion' monstrosities....not positive unless the stock folds, but if they now consider PGs sporting, the it should be no problem, as long as you don't use mags over 5 rds.

4. Screw a Russian or US made choke on the barrel (or a choke adapter that looks like a flash hider but with closed sides, or maybe soon also serves as a brake.... no problem)

 

That's my take on this matter...

[ShadowFire 220]

Well I'm still good, I have one more part than is needed for 922r compliance despite the Tromix modified OEM handguard. Just a lot of good US made products out there for the S12 which is obviously a very good thing.

[Eric Pate 478]

Seems to me that the entire idea behind all this 922R nonsense is either to get people into non-compliance without them realizing it, or to scare newbies out of even wanting to mess with the applicable firearms. Just my opinion.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Seems to me that the entire idea behind all this 922R nonsense is either to get people into non-compliance without them realizing it, or to scare newbies out of even wanting to mess with the applicable firearms. Just my opinion.

 

+1

[netpackrat 566]

Seems to me that the entire idea behind all this 922R nonsense is either to get people into non-compliance without them realizing it, or to scare newbies out of even wanting to mess with the applicable firearms. Just my opinion.

 

The point was originally to shut off the importation of military style weapons into the US. It's pretty much useless right now, because the gun industry has almost totally circumvented it. The only thing it really does anymore is raise the price, since making parts here in the US and installing them adds cost to the process. I'm pretty sure that the reason you don't hear of individuals getting dinged for 922r violations is because the ATF is afraid the case would be thrown out of court, and then they wouldn't be able to use 922r against the importers, either. Because if 922r went away, the cost of importing and selling a functional AK would go way down, and I think it would also end some of the barrel ban foolishness for kits.

 

Edit to add: If somebody needs that last US part for 922r compliance, it is pretty easy to make a floor plate for the Russian magazines using a piece of aluminum of the right thickness. Just use the original as a pattern, you could literally make it with a hacksaw and file. Then drill a hole in the right spot for the retainer.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Netpackrat

[TapeWorm3 104]

The only thing it really does anymore is raise the price, since making parts here in the US and installing them adds cost to the process.

But it creates US jobs.

[gunfun 3,931]

The only thing it really does anymore is raise the price, since making parts here in the US and installing them adds cost to the process.

But it creates US jobs.

 

Stabbing strangers keeps nurses employed too, that doesn't make it right.

[randyf 35]

The only thing it really does anymore is raise the price, since making parts here in the US and installing them adds cost to the process.

But it creates US jobs.

 

Stabbing strangers keeps nurses employed too, that doesn't make it right.

 

I like it...gona be my next tee shirt..."stab a stranger save a nurse"

[Vermiform 26]

The only thing it really does anymore is raise the price, since making parts here in the US and installing them adds cost to the process.

But it creates US jobs.

 

Stabbing strangers keeps nurses employed too, that doesn't make it right.

 

Brilliant!

[kodaline 178]

Isn't there a ruling getting made that removes the sporting purpose from imported shotguns anyway?

 

I would think that would make 922r irrelevant.

 

I decided a couple years ago that I didn't care about such bullshit.

[vampire847 9]

can't you replace the mag springs and followers in factory mags to adjust the parts count?

[theorangeplanet 968]

You could, if any US manufacturers made such replacements.

[gunfun 3,931]

CSSpecs was just hinting about making a floorplate in another thread. R&R sells the springs in whatever length you specify...

 

Someone pointed out that making a floorplate for the factory mags is as easy as tracing it out on 1/8" aluminum and cutting.

 

You could probably get spare springs from AGP, promag, surefire as well.

[GregM1 241]

springs will not adjust the count. mags are made of three parts that count. floor plate, follower, and body. the springs origin is irrelevant.

[gunfun 3,931]

I thought so, but forgot. That's embarrassing.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I thought so, but forgot. That's embarrassing.

This is a clear indicator that 922R is working as intended.... to keep many distracted and confused with trivial shit while they continue to erode our other freedoms.

 

GF,

You've been around a while and you still got tangled up in it, for a moment. Imagine how confused the new guys around here are?

 

I consider myself lucky because the US parts that I use would be my first choice anyways.

 

MD-20 drum

Tapco G2 Doublehook

MD MOLOT grip

PolyChoke

 

I prefer Russian stocks, handguards, op rods, and pucks.

[robfromga 39]

I thought so, but forgot. That's embarrassing.

This is a clear indicator that 922R is working as intended.... to keep many distracted and confused with trivial shit while they continue to erode our other freedoms.

 

GF,

You've been around a while and you still got tangled up in it, for a moment. Imagine how confused the new guys around here are?

 

 

 

I fall into that category....

 

Its just more BS to backdoor a ban on import or use. I told my wife about the 922r rules, "its a shotgun, just stick whatever you want on there...that is stupid". Imagine if you didnt know about the regs.

[Raiden 1]

Imagine if you didnt know about the regs.

 

nothing would happen. planes would stay in the sky, and the sun would rise again in the morning.

 

Heavily armed men running scared over whether their masters approve of the origin of their stock or not. Disgusting.

 

Based on this list I'm only compliant because I happen to like K-Var's black plastic. If I ever desire Russian wood it will go on without a second thought.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Raiden

[robfromga 39]

Imagine if you didnt know about the regs.

 

nothing would happen. planes would stay in the sky, and the sun would rise again in the morning.

 

Heavily armed men running scared over whether their masters approve of the origin of their stock or not. Disgusting.

 

Thanks for the value judgement, you know me well. Maybe you could stick to the topic and actually provide some substance?

[drhobo 4]

Well, I'm no longer legal with the stock 5 rounder, hi-cap mags all the time I guess. The funny thing is it fell behind my ammo storage bin after the last range trip. I guess no need to dig it out from back there.

Edited December 14, 2011 by drhobo

[raleighsaiga 81]

I'm all for getting rid of this requirement, but really, this isn't exactly the enforcement priority for the ATF that people are making it out to be. Yes, I believe that it is best to follow the regulations, but am I worried that my dog is going to get shot in a night raid of fast roping ATF ninjas if my count is off by one? Nope.

 

Does anyone have any credible evidence of an individual who converted their own shotgun getting in trouble with the ATF over 922r? I could see them writing a letter to a vendor pumping out a bunch of non-compliant guns for profit, but I just don't see the ATF as the 922r goons some are worried about.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I would like to thank Stephen... The fucking idiot who just HAD to take the time to ask the question which resulted in fucking over a good portion of the S-12 community.

 

 

Thanks alot ya' fuckin' blowjob!!!

 

What'd ya' think would happen by giving them ideas to reconsider shit when you ask a question of an agency who's job it is to limit our rights, run by people who's advancement is determined by who can do it the best???

 

I swear to God, some gun owners are our own worst enemies.

 

Stephen, please report to Pauly's Steelin' Custom Fabrication so I can slap the everlovin' shit out of you... Ya' fuckin' mook.

 

Just a heads up world; Any time you get an idea on something that could limit our rights, keep it the hell to yourself.

If you're terribly concerned that you may get in twuble for it, do whatever modifications you think may be needed to your own shit. Don't go seeking to get laws & letters officially made to fuck over the rest of us!

 

Thank you very much & have a nice day.

Pauly

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Alcohol? Tobacco? Firearms? Explosives?

 

They're the fun police!

[rnemhrd 165]

I would like to thank Stephen... The fucking idiot who just HAD to take the time to ask the question which resulted in fucking over a good portion of the S-12 community.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks alot ya' fuckin' blowjob!!!

 

What'd ya' think would happen by giving them ideas to reconsider shit when you ask a question of an agency who's job it is to limit our rights, run by people who's advancement is determined by who can do it the best???

 

I swear to God, some gun owners are our own worst enemies.

 

Stephen, please report to Pauly's Steelin' Custom Fabrication so I can slap the everlovin' shit out of you... Ya' fuckin' mook.

 

Just a heads up world; Any time you get an idea on something that could limit our rights, keep it the hell to yourself.

If you're terribly concerned that you may get in twuble for it, do whatever modifications you think may be needed to your own shit. Don't go seeking to get laws & letters officially made to fuck over the rest of us!

 

Thank you very much & have a nice day.

Pauly

Is the quote "let sleeping dogs lie" Well it will be more work for ya anyways.

Edited December 14, 2011 by rnemhrd

[Iceberg 1]

My head hurts....lol. Has anyone ever been nicked for non-compliance? I doubt it.

[gunfun 3,931]

Well, I'm no longer legal with the stock 5 rounder, hi-cap mags all the time I guess. The funny thing is it fell behind my ammo storage bin after the last range trip. I guess no need to dig it out from back there.

 

Sure you can.

 

Got 5 or ten minutes a cutting tool and a pencil?

 

Take out floor plate trace on scrap of metal < 5/32". Cut. punch Drill detent hole. Done.

 

[gunfun 3,931]

As for the animosity toward the guy who asked. Unfounded. You are kidding yourself if you think this wasn't on the radar already.

 

If any of you were ever in a trial, they would make a determination of the parts count on the spot. As far as I know no federal court has decided how many parts count or not, and I think that is what counts. The ATF letters are only their opinion, until a judge rules on it for your jurisdiction. (as I understand things) An individual may be able to rely on a letter to himself, but you can't rely on his letter. Further, you were all relying on ambiguity and weren't sure if you were good to start with. There is something called the ostritch doctrine that basically says that trying to remain ignorant of a legal or factual status won't help you. I for one would rather know for sure what the rules they could use against me are, so it never becomes an issue.

[VladTepes 160]

Well, I'm no longer legal with the stock 5 rounder, hi-cap mags all the time I guess. The funny thing is it fell behind my ammo storage bin after the last range trip. I guess no need to dig it out from back there.

 

Sure you can.

 

Got 5 or ten minutes a cutting tool and a pencil?

 

Take out floor plate trace on scrap of metal < 5/32". Cut. punch Drill detent hole. Done.

 

 

 

this post is epic for so many reasons..

[netpackrat 566]

 

 

Just good old aircraft aluminum, color coded to the hulls I am using for reloading, and with rivet heads so I can get the right ammo type from my mag pouch in the dark via braille.

[G O B 3,516]

Pauly,

Need some help bitch slapping asshats? Hell some of us would pay for a whack at them!