POLL Doublestack mags versus drums--options and cost

[sicktooth 8]

You know all drum possibility where not mentioned in this poll!

How many votes would this thing get?

 

LOL...does it shoot milk bullets?

[stiletto raggio 20]

Anyone else want to explain why they voted for what they voted for? (yes, I know that was a bad sentence) There are arguments to be made for all of these potential products, and a convincing one could get an actual producer on board.

[topmaul 42]

I voted for 12 in an 8 the OEM 8 is about the same size as a standard AK mag, at least in length. Tactical guys will be all over having 12 rounds for the size of an 8 is perfect for me.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Anyone else want to explain why they voted for what they voted for? (yes, I know that was a bad sentence) There are arguments to be made for all of these potential products, and a convincing one could get an actual producer on board.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=29625

Post #5 & #7

[waltham_41 52]

My first choice was the 10 rd drum and second was the 16 rd DS mag.

 

If I am worried about weight I can use my 5 rd mag, other than that the whole idea is peace through superior firepower

[stiletto raggio 20]

I said I would wait a week to start doing any real analysis. Here are the results as of 1244 Central Time on 23 September.

 

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 33 ] [31.73%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 37 ] [35.58%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 13 ] [12.50%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 9 ] [8.65%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 12 ] [11.54%]

 

What would be your second pick?

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 24 ] [23.08%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 32 ] [30.77%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 19 ] [18.27%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 14 ] [13.46%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 15 ] [14.42%]

 

So far, the 12 round DS mag is still the most popular, though the 16 has been gaining some ground. All of the DS mags are more popular ideas than the compact drums, though this is most likely due to cost rather than anything else.

 

More to follow.

[uzitiger 193]

The double stack magazine would be better than the drums. The drums make the Saiga harder to wield. I would like to also see an eight round magazine made by AGP or Pro Mag becuse the ten rounder is too long and makes the S-12 a monopod.

Edited September 27, 2008 by uzitiger

[badkharma2five 2]

I'd like to see an S12 drum designed similar to the old Chinese AK drums...where the rounds kinda fill the entire drum body. You could take a drum the size of the MD 20 and maybe get 40 or even 50+ rounds in it. Firepower is what brought me to the S12 in the first place. Maybe Mike D could start development of the MD 50 in the future!!!! I'd buy a drum the size of a spare tire, if it held more rounds!!

[Reverendfranz 160]

I'd buy a drum the size of a spare tire, if it held more rounds!!

 

Has AA got a product for you! Tire not included.

[stiletto raggio 20]

Here are the results as of today.

 

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 42 ] [33.33%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 46 ] [36.51%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 14 ] [11.11%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 10 ] [7.94%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 14 ] [11.11%]

 

What would be your second pick?

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 27 ] [21.43%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 43 ] [34.13%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 23 ] [18.25%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 14 ] [11.11%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 19 ] [15.08%]

 

So far, the popularity rankings are as follow:

 

DS 12 round mag [ 89 ]

DS 16 round mag [ 69 ]

DS 8 round mag [ 37]

12 round drum [ 33 ]

10 round drum [ 24 ]

 

The following analysis is based on impressions I have gathered through reading commentary on this thread and in others around this forum. Due to the limited amount of data and tha fact that so few people stated why they were voting the way they did, you could call it speculation. At any rate, data without interpretation is meaningless, so here it goes.

 

The DS 12 round mag remains the most popular option by far. Why? Because it is the middle of the road. Not too long and not too heavy, relatively inexpensive and still higher in capacity than the AGP and ProMag 10 rounders. It would offer many advantages over not only the magazines available now, but those proposed alongside it. What are the drawbacks of the DS 12? Personally, I can't think of any.

 

The DS 16 is seen as a cheaper alternative to the 20 round drums currently available. At under half the price, it would appeal to a lot of guys who just can't see paying over $200 for an ammo feeding device. It would be long and clumsy in the prone position but fine for many competitions. I would predict that the last few rounds might be tough to load due to requisite spring strength, but we'll see.

 

The last three all play to those who want a compact product with a higher capacity than the SS 5s offer.

 

The DS 8 is the cheapest offering and replicates the capacity of the much-acclaimed factory SS 8 with the compact size of the regular SS8. It is hard to imagine a legitimate competition or tactical scenario where the DS would be at a disadvantage to either the SS 8 or the SS 5. Frankly, it would make both obsolescent.

 

Nearly the same popularity can be found in the 12 round drum. Why? 12 rounds breaks the capacity threshold established by the AGP mags and the drum format does so in a much shorter configuration. The cost is singificantly higher than the DS mags, which I think illustrates what a difference price point makes.

 

The least popular design, according to this poll, is the one that is most likely to make it to production at this point. CHAOS has a 10 round drum on the drawing board and promises some new features that are significant innovations. I will let Cameron take all questions on this one, but I think the biggest detractions for a 10 round drum are the necessarily high price point combined with the "well, the AGP mags are long, but they hold the same ten rounds" mentality.

 

I, for one, would purchase at least two of any of the designs proposed. I would buy significantly more of the DS 12s (probably 6 or so) and the DS 8s (4), but anyone who manufactured these would get my money. The Saiga 12 is only as good as its magazines, and because magazines are the one area that has been so underdeveloped until now, I think it deserves the attention and reasources of the accessory-making community. If this poll can be of any use in guiding would-be manufacturers, it has served its purpose.

[bigj480 203]

I voted for the 10 round drum, we already have a large 20 round drum and we have large 10 round mags, I'm looking for something smaller with the 10 round capacity. If I want 8 rounds I'll mod an AGP.

Edited October 1, 2008 by bigj480

[aessu 1]

I voted for the 10 round drum, we already have a large 20 round drum and we have large 10 round mags, I'm looking for something smaller with the 10 round capacity. If I want 8 rounds I'll mod an AGP.

 

 

Bigger is Better!

Less Flower Power, more FIREPOWER!

[bigj480 203]

Bigger is Better!

Less Flower Power, more FIREPOWER!

 

I hear ya, but I've already got like 15 10 rounders and 3 drums. Now I'm just waiting on my Saiga.... Good luck with your international order though.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

First post, just joined the forums! I've owned a Saiga-12 for right around 6 months, and I love it. Still in its straight-out-of-the-box configuration, with 3 AGP 10-round mags; I hope to eventually give Tony Rumore a big pile of money to make it truly beautiful.

 

I voted for the 16-round double stack, because I'm primarily interested in high-capacity, even to the detriment of practicality. I want the mag for plinking and shooting clays out in the woods. What I really would like isn't and probably never shall be on offer; a stupidly bulky, awkward 30-round double stack mag. My second choice was the 8-round DS because it would be the perfect companion to a Saiga SBS, protruding roughly as far from the receiver as most pistol grips, while still providing sufficient capacity to deter multiple intruders.

[space_weazel 1]

The DS 12 is the most practical and functional combination of size and capacity. Now who is gonna get on this and get it done?

[6500rpm 670]

Making it is one thing, making it feed right EVERY time is the goal.

[stiletto raggio 20]

An interesting idea for a 10 round drum that shouldn't be too hard to put into production. The work has been done. We need to get Knoxx on this.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=30314

[stiletto raggio 20]

A follow-up poll on 10 round drum options. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=30328

[gtnichols 51]

8 rounders are are nice size mag.

If they held more in the same amount of space, that would be sweet!

at least IMO,.....

[stiletto raggio 20]

Totals as of 23 October, with 147 Votes

 

Which would you like to see most?

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 47 ] [32.41%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 56 ] [38.62%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 16 ] [11.03%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 11 ] [7.59%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 15 ] [10.34%]

 

What would be your second pick?

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 33 ] [22.76%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 46 ] [31.72%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 30 ] [20.69%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 15 ] [10.34%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 21 ] [14.48%]

 

DS 12 round mag [102] (+13)

DS 16 round mag [80] (+11)

DS 8 round mag [46] (+9)

12 round drum [36] (+3)

10 round drum [26] (+2)

 

Overall, the trends remain the same. The DS 12 remains by far the most popular option, but no developer or producer has (publicly) commited to developing a DS mag of any kind. Cameron at Chaos has commited to developing a 10 round drum that will accept 3" shells and ProMag is releasing a SS 10 round mag shortly. The follow-up poll on 10 round drums shows that the great majority of potential buyers prefer a center-feed design to a snail-drum type mag.

Edited October 23, 2008 by stiletto raggio

[HB of CJ 1,263]

Great thread and posts. Thank you. Oh boy. I for one would pay big $bucks$ for a RELIABLE 8 to 10 rd double stack stick mag. Probably the best compromise of length, weight, capacity and market.

 

Can a double stack 12 gage mag be made to work? Dunno. Rimmed fat shell. Look at the detachable 10rd .303 mag from the S.M.L.E.. The British made it work just fine. Straight double stack.

 

Can the Saiga feed a pure double stack or would it have to reduce to a single stack under the bolt? Can a plastic mag be made heavy enough? The Thermold types come to mind. Excellent.

 

Anyway, I would lean more towards quality and just bite and pay the $price$, if it was kinda within reason. However, the double stacks would really have to work. HB of CJ :)

[stiletto raggio 20]

Surefire will be shipping 12 round SS mags in December. MAA is the only place I know of for preorder.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

If the true purpose of this thread is to find out what I, as a consumer, would like to see YOU, or someone you know, develop and bring to market, then that would be the DS highest capacity mag from the choices above. Practical or not, I already have every other style of S-12 mags that are currently made, so I want to see the long awaited, much talked about DS S-12 mag. And I don't want a little scrawny mag the size of a five rounder, I already have plenty of those I don't use. If I do want a small mag it's there already. If I want an 8 or a 10 rdr I already have those too, and the extra length doesn't bother me a bit. It's an AK! It's supposed to have a big ol donkey dick mag hanging under it. Now if I want to have maximum capacity in a minimum mag length, for shooting prone or from a bench for instance, I'll use my trusty MD-Arms 20. If I want a mag I can put in my gun and guarantee a jam out of almost every shot...Yep! Got that too! I'll use the wraithmaker...lol. Or I can use it for something to prop my barrel up on on the bench, if I put a rolled up sock or something there to protect from scratches.

One thing that makes my decision, of what I would like to see from you, is the fact that CHAOS is already making the compact 10 rd drum and maybe others...so of course I'm not going to vote for someone else to come out with the same. I'll be getting mine from CHAOS because Cameron was the first to go forward with that design and he IS a vendor here.

 

Just make the doublestack and make it actually work, and people will buy the shit out of them. The bigger, the better IMO, although I know of several people who have been asking for a long time for a DS that would be small like the 5 rd factory mags. I would be more than happy to help out in the testing of which ever ones you decide to make.

 

Best of luck with this venture. It would be nice to see it become a reality.

[stiletto raggio 20]

If the true purpose of this thread is to find out what I, as a consumer, would like to see YOU, or someone you know, develop and bring to market, then that would be the DS highest capacity mag from the choices above.

...

Best of luck with this venture. It would be nice to see it become a reality.

 

As I stated in my original post, " I am posting this not because I am capable of bringing these products to market, but I would like the more mechanically minded to be able to see what the market really wants." If I were in any sort of a position to bring something like this to the market, believe me, I would. I am an active duty Army officer and have more than enough on my plate as it is. I would be more than happy to give advice, make observations, or do beta testing for anyone who can actually produce a magazine, but I can't afford the time or money to invest right now.

 

It would indeed be nice to see this come to fruition. The demand is there, now we just need a reliable designer and producer.

Edited November 13, 2008 by stiletto raggio

[stiletto raggio 20]

As of 13 November:

 

 

Which would you like to see most?

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 58 ] [34.94%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 59 ] [35.54%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 18 ] [10.84%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 11 ] [6.63%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 20 ] [12.05%]

 

What would be your second pick?

DS 16 round mag the length of a SS 10 [ 36 ] [21.69%]

DS 12 round mag the length of a SS 8 [ 52 ] [31.33%]

DS 8 round mag the one inch longer than a SS 5 [ 33 ] [19.88%]

10 round drum same or shorter than SS 5 [ 19 ] [11.45%]

12 round drum same or slightly longer than SS 5 [ 26 ] [15.66%]

 

DS 12 round mag [111] (+9 since last update)

DS 16 round mag [94] (+14)

DS 8 round mag [51] (+6)

12 round drum [46] (+10)

10 round drum [30] (+4)

[CB3 0]

I'm late to this party, but you want input.

 

My S-12 is not for gaming or hunting. It's a short range defensive weapon used with buckshot. I want it quick and easy to handle. Hanging a long mag underneath, or a heavy one with 10+ rounds of 12 gauge ammo, decreases the handling characteristics.

 

I store my second and third mags in pouches. A DS mag would be even wider than the SS, of course, and the SS is already a handful. Something wider would be unwieldy, IMO, and probably slower to use. The five's do not hold enough, the tens are too long and heavy. Although I don't have any, I think the 8-SS would be just about right.

 

Interestingly enough, the guys who designed this firearm and use it for its intended purposes in Russia, use 8-round SS mags. Gee, I wonder why?

 

Is it just an American thing that only bigger can be better? The trade-off for massive firepower is increased size and weight. How do you carry a spare drum? What do you do with the expended one if you have to switch between two drums in a firefight? I retain mags in a dump pouch to load them again. I would rather stow a SS in a hurry than a bigger DS or drum.

 

Others of you use your shotties differently, so your needs may be different. This is just my point of view to maximize the effectiveness of what was originally designed as the best fighting shotgun.

 

CB3

[G O B 3,516]

Many of us are not that young anymore, and our fighting would be defensive. Manouver is for the young - massive defense is for us graybeards. I can envision few scenarios where a MD-20 and 2 10 rd reloads would be inadequate. But I would like some 10-12 rd either drum or doublestacks for varmint controll.

[DMGunn 1]

I voted for the 12 because it seems almost ideal - not as awkwardly long as the AGP, but more capacity. And fewer parts and bulk than any drum. What's not to love? My second vote was the 16, but after reading other opinions, I think I should have voted for the 8, with the 16 a very close 3rd.

[Tactical_T 6]

Anyone else want to explain why they voted for what they voted for? (yes, I know that was a bad sentence) There are arguments to be made for all of these potential products, and a convincing one could get an actual producer on board.

 

I voted for 16-round DS because the lenth of a 10-round SS doesn't bother me. I wanna get a 20-round drum, but don't like the idea that I cannot fold the stock with the drum attached. With a 16-round DS, I'm thinking that I could still fold my Ace stock.

[kellysguy 1]

I HATE my AGPs. Now.......I've NEVER had a problem witht them but I just don't trust them for some reason. Too long and I don't like the material or the fact that they are screwed together. I would like the factory 8's but ain't payin' that $$$. I just don't like plastic mags. I'd rather metal in ANY (well, almost) capacity. I'm actually thinking about selling the gun because of plastic mags. (I love the gun, don't get me wrong). To me, the plastic mags are the only weak link in the system. I've been toying with making some metal mags but have just been too lazy( and don't have the proper equipment).

I just would feeel uncomfortable trusting my life to AGPs in extreme conditions. Just give me something affordable I can trust.