Pulled over for carrying

[bigmedicinewolf 0]

The reason police across the country act this brazen is because most Americans are ignorant of their rights. As far as "running the numbers to make sure everything checks out" goes, the previous posts are correct in that this constitutes an illegal search and seizure. There is no national gun registry so the only way a patrol officer can verify the status of a weapon is to cross check the serial number with a known list of stolen weapons. Since he had no valid reason to suspect your weapons were stolen, this search ammounted to nothing more than a fishing expedition. Without probable cause, ie. a reasonable assumption that these weapons were stolen, this was an illegal and unconstitutional search.

[Marc 147]

Openly carrying a loaded handgun is legal in the state of IN with an HCP/CCWP. At the most (since you weren't breaking any laws) the police only had the authority to perform a Terry Stop (Terry v Ohio) to confirm that you where not commiting/about to commit/have just commited a crime, the Terry Stop legally ended when you produced a legal HCP at which time they should have returned your property and let you go on your way.

 

The court case that found that "running the serial number to find whatever to be stolen/legal/illegal/unregistered" as an illegal search was Arizona v. Hicks.

 

Your rights where trampled on! Please, please do not let this die. File an FOIA request with the police department to obtain copies of their incident reports and include all audio/radio recordings, file a complaint about this and/or speak to an attorney. Police should NOT be allowed to get away with trampling yours or anyone's rights, please don't let this go away without at least filing a complaint.

 

Please note that IANAL and I invite everyone to come check out http://www.opencarry.org

 

Open carry is legal in 43 States in some way or another (including Louisiana and Kalifornia )

[okie shooter 0]

If the pic I saw of that shotty is correct, I would get rid of the orange thread protector for sure. as if it came down to it, its one of the things that ID's a non firearm. Thus even to us who know its real, the orange tips are there to try to keep kids from getting shot with airsoft at one time.

[Azrial 1,091]

Openly carrying a loaded handgun is legal in the state of IN with an HCP/CCWP. At the most (since you weren't breaking any laws) the police only had the authority to perform a Terry Stop (Terry v Ohio) to confirm that you where not commiting/about to commit/have just commited a crime, the Terry Stop legally ended when you produced a legal HCP at which time they should have returned your property and let you go on your way....

This stop had nothing to do with Terry. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

OP, I would call on the city's Mayor and ask by what legal authority the officers had for forceing a warrantless search of my vehcile. In any warrantless search there must be an recoginized exception for it to be lawful.

 

I will give you a hint, it is not "Terry."

 

You might also ask the local media if they are interested in your story.

[cscharlie 107]

Ill just throw in a pic or 3

 

That is a cool looking color scheme! I think if the barrel was orange and the thread protector was black, it would fit with the rest of the gun better. It might also save you from beeing sued and loosing in civil court under some circumstances if you were to ever use it to defend yourself buy not having the muzzle painted orange like a toy.

[GEQ31 0]

just my 2 cents...

 

idk about indiana laws, but in texas a CHL is strictly for a concealed weapon...the cops can lay it on thick if the gun becomes visible at all, including gusts of wind opening a jacket, or bending over such that a handle comes into view...it's actually considered "brandishing", and they can take away the gun and/or your CHL on the spot, plus prosecute if they so choose.

 

that said, i usually travel with an arsenal in the car, and my taste in firearms has gotten me out of more than one ticket...seems the cops in indiana are just as gun-crazy as the ones here lol

[DogMan 2,343]

Open carry is legal in Washington state whether you have a permit or not so you don't need to worry about your shirt blowing open or whatever when you are caryying concealed. I've had people try to tell me that if that happens it is considered "brandishing". I disagree. If I have a permit and I am carrying concealed then I am covered. If my jacket blows open (and I am talking about truely accidentally) and somebody spots it, then I am covered under my right to carry openly. Caselaw and police departments in WA have already established that the mere act of carrying a holstered weapon is not to be considered "brandishing". Brandiishing is an intentional act meant to intimidate by displaying the weapon. Of course this has nothing to do with Indiana. I'm just pointing out how all these variations in state law add up to a confusing mess for gun owners.

[Krom 36]

I'm at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) in Charleston SC for Coast Guard Boarding Officer school and we just went over Firearms procedures and we were trained that it is the Officer's discretion to check the serial numbers of any weapon that we come across. FYI, when the CG conducts a standard boarding is it a SAFETY INSPECTION first and has no level of suspicion or probable cause unless the Office observes something in the course of the inspection that raises the level of Reasonable Suspicion that a crime has been committed. So as I've been trained LEO (or at least the CG) need no level of suspicion or probable cause to run the serial number of weapons we encounter. And just to be clear the on a CG boarding the first thing we ask the master/crew of a boat we board is if they have any weapons on board so we can secure them till the boarding is over. So as far as I know your rights were not violated. BUT.

 

I don't understand why every one's attitude is so negative toward a LEO checking out guns in your possession to see if they are in compliance with the law. Everyone on this forum is very careful to obey the laws so that we can keep our rights to own and possess weapons, and I think it is safe to say as a group we want to aggressively fight to keep and expand our gun rights also. So we should have NOTHING TO HIDE, we want LEOs on our side. Which means why not be transparent and help catch the people that are working to erode our rights by violating the law. I mean what if those cops pulled over a guy who had some of YOUR stolen guns in his car? Wouldn't you want those cops to check and see if those were stolen? It's not like a when they/we check a gun to see if it's stolen it creates a history of what guns you own, it just helps stop ILLEGAL guns. So why not be helpful? Helps us stop and catch criminals, which keeps those criminals from trashing our reputation as gun owners, and keeps LEOs on our side fighting for the rights of normal citizens. Just my 2cents.

[hobbyshooter 59]

"brandishing" is when you approach someone, ask them to 'loan" you their money, and lift your garments up to expose your weapon.

I'm pretty sure that's attempted robbery with intent.

 

"brandishing" is an INTENTIONAL act.

Which is up for interpretation. It's at the discretion of the officer to determine if an act is intentional or not. In Florida if you get a nice LEO he'll ask you for your CWP and give you a lecture about what "CONCEALED" means. Bottom line here is; if anybody sees your gun it was NOT concealed and you can be charged with brandishing <PERIOD>. They even stressed that in my CWP course.

 

Having your shirt blow up due to a wind gust and having your firearm exposed is not "brandishing".

In a state where you are allowed to open carry, yes.

 

In Indiana, if you have a CCW, you can open carry, so even if the cops saw his pistol, they should have checked his CCW and that should have been that.

That makes sense. Open carry is very foreign to me.

 

I'm at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) in Charleston SC for Coast Guard Boarding Officer school and we just went over Firearms procedures and we were trained that it is the Officer's discretion to check the serial numbers of any weapon that we come across. FYI, when the CG conducts a standard boarding is it a SAFETY INSPECTION first and has no level of suspicion or probable cause unless the Office observes something in the course of the inspection that raises the level of Reasonable Suspicion that a crime has been committed. So as I've been trained LEO (or at least the CG) need no level of suspicion or probable cause to run the serial number of weapons we encounter. And just to be clear the on a CG boarding the first thing we ask the master/crew of a boat we board is if they have any weapons on board so we can secure them till the boarding is over. So as far as I know your rights were not violated. BUT.

I know the laws of search are very different between on the water and in a motor vehicle here in Florida. Likely due to decades of drug runners. I imagine the Carolinas is similar since you relatively close.

 

I don't understand why every one's attitude is so negative toward a LEO checking out guns in your possession to see if they are in compliance with the law. Everyone on this forum is very careful to obey the laws so that we can keep our rights to own and possess weapons, and I think it is safe to say as a group we want to aggressively fight to keep and expand our gun rights also. So we should have NOTHING TO HIDE, we want LEOs on our side. Which means why not be transparent and help catch the people that are working to erode our rights by violating the law. I mean what if those cops pulled over a guy who had some of YOUR stolen guns in his car? Wouldn't you want those cops to check and see if those were stolen? It's not like a when they/we check a gun to see if it's stolen it creates a history of what guns you own, it just helps stop ILLEGAL guns. So why not be helpful? Helps us stop and catch criminals, which keeps those criminals from trashing our reputation as gun owners, and keeps LEOs on our side fighting for the rights of normal citizens. Just my 2cents.

I agree, but there's obviously a fine line between wanting to be helpful and giving up your rights. If we have rights it's not up to the officer to decide they should be violated, and Civilians have witnessed that happen so many feel as though they "wont give an inch". I can understand both sides.

Edited May 31, 2009 by hobbyshooter

[vintagedude88 16]

Saw this in the Calguns forum:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthr...0571&page=2

 

Take a look at post #14 onward. According to that the cops were well within the law to do what they did.

 

The fact that they saw the gun in the first place gave them enough reasonable cause.

Edited May 31, 2009 by FrustratedInCali

[Paulry 50]

I've had CC permits for over 15 years and back it the day when I was trained we knew that rule ONE is never expose in public. Just the fact you exposed in public, in my warped mind feel you deserve a shake down. Think of the rest of us who are careful to follow the rules. Your lucky you didn't run in to a scared citizen or rookie cop, it may have been different. I don't like the orange barrel band, didn't like it the first time I saw it and I don't like it now. It looks like a toy! The rest of the orange is cool.

[vitamink 90]

I'm glad cops run serial numbers....if they hadn't i'd never had got my guns back from the 2 shitheads that broke into my house, and they never would have been prosecuted for doing so. In indiana if you have a gun on and a cop sees it, you get ran and the gun gets ran, that's just part of life and i expect it. Its sort of like when you see people get upset when the clerk asks to see their ID when they pay with a credit card, but then when they are a victim of credit card fraud they get upset that some clerk didn't check the ID of the guy with their card. A cop has been killed in indy every year from someone carrying a gun and that always makes the news, what doesn't make the news is when a cop gets shot at every month in indy. A cop friend of mine told me that 1 in 8 of every gun he comes across is stolen. You can imagine how paranoid that would make you. Once a cop checks you out and everything is cool they usually are interested in what mods you've done or where you shoot and that sort of thing because they're interested in guns just as much as you are.

[nalioth 405]

just my 2 cents...

 

idk about indiana laws, but in texas a CHL is strictly for a concealed weapon...the cops can lay it on thick if the gun becomes visible at all, including gusts of wind opening a jacket, or bending over such that a handle comes into view...it's actually considered "brandishing", and they can take away the gun and/or your CHL on the spot, plus prosecute if they so choose.

The Texas law states that your concealed handgun must be intentionally displayed to be considered "brandishing". The fact that some cops (and prosecutors) choose to use events not under the carriers control to "take away the gun and/or your CHL on the spot" is just crap.

 

 

I'm glad cops run serial numbers....if they hadn't i'd never had got my guns back from the 2 shitheads that broke into my house, and they never would have been prosecuted for doing so. In indiana if you have a gun on and a cop sees it, you get ran and the gun gets ran, that's just part of life and i expect it. Its sort of like when you see people get upset when the clerk asks to see their ID when they pay with a credit card, but then when they are a victim of credit card fraud they get upset that some clerk didn't check the ID of the guy with their card. A cop has been killed in indy every year from someone carrying a gun and that always makes the news, what doesn't make the news is when a cop gets shot at every month in indy. A cop friend of mine told me that 1 in 8 of every gun he comes across is stolen. You can imagine how paranoid that would make you. Once a cop checks you out and everything is cool they usually are interested in what mods you've done or where you shoot and that sort of thing because they're interested in guns just as much as you are.

I am glad you got your guns back, but that still doesn't make this right.

 

Those cops had no probable cause to run the OP's weapon's serial numbers, especially after he produced a concealed handgun license. The presence of the license made his exposed Glock "no crime at all".

 

 

 

It is sad that "it is part of life" and you "expect it".

 

Unless they have probable cause or you give them permission, it is a warrantless and illegal search.

 

Until people like vinnivanhood start asking "How was this search legal?" (through a lawyer), the police in this country will continue to run serials like this, because "that's how they've always done it", and nobody has educated them (via a lawyer) to the fact that it is an illegal and warrantless search.

Edited May 31, 2009 by nalioth

[SOPMOD 254]

If you live in an Authoritarian Society and vote to give ANY government agency more power then you have essentially signed your rights away.A "Right Wing" person resents being hassled about bibles and guns and a "Left Wing" person resents being hassled about substances and pornography and both of them keep getting played "Left vs Right" making the intrusive Authoritarian system bigger and stronger.

 

There is no Left or Right just Authoritarian or Libertarian...

 

Defend the pothead's right to grow and smoke whatever he wants and you get your gun rights back in the process...

[cscharlie 107]

I know of atleast one state where it is compltely up to the County Sherrif as to whether or not he issues a permit without giving reason. They do not have to justify their decision. The sherriff can also revoke your permit at any time again without reason. They can also put any restrictions on it that they want like "valid only when at state approved firing range, or only valid when carrying more than $500.00. A lot of them only issue to their golf buddies, or family members. Some won't even issue personal carry permits to their own deputies.

One of the first things you are told when going through the class is that if anyone see's your firearm while carrying and they call the Police, it will be taken from you, you will be put in handcuffs, you will go to jail, you might be released later, and your permit will be revoked by the Sherriff.

[nalioth 405]

Ok, folks, this isn't a "free for all" (quite common when the OP doesn't make their location known).

 

vinnivanhood actually has his location in his info field, so we can discuss Indiana law.

 

All of this "well, in my neck of the woods, blah blah blah" is just mud in the water.

[vitamink 90]

He had plenty of reason to run the gun in the car... I wasn't there so i can't comment on what was said to vinn.. or what there reasoning was other than what he has said. Vehicle laws make life for cops really easy as every vehicle on the road can be stopped because the people/vehicles are making 1000different mistakes all the time. The cops probably waited for him to drive to find a reason to pull him over and check things out. As he said earlier the cop stated his windows were too dark. there is your stopping charge. The cop then has the right to search the immediate area around the driver for weapons (not drugs) used to possibly harm the officer. Because your tint is too dark a cop can decide to tow your vehicle because it is unsafe...now he can search your vehicle in what is called an inventory search. where he will collect article names and yes serial numbers off of whatever is in the car prior to towing it.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I don't understand why every one's attitude is so negative toward a LEO checking out guns in your possession to see if they are in compliance with the law. Everyone on this forum is very careful to obey the laws so that we can keep our rights to own and possess weapons, and I think it is safe to say as a group we want to aggressively fight to keep and expand our gun rights also. So we should have NOTHING TO HIDE, we want LEOs on our side. Which means why not be transparent and help catch the people that are working to erode our rights by violating the law. I mean what if those cops pulled over a guy who had some of YOUR stolen guns in his car? Wouldn't you want those cops to check and see if those were stolen? It's not like a when they/we check a gun to see if it's stolen it creates a history of what guns you own, it just helps stop ILLEGAL guns. So why not be helpful? Helps us stop and catch criminals, which keeps those criminals from trashing our reputation as gun owners, and keeps LEOs on our side fighting for the rights of normal citizens. Just my 2cents.

Why is it that having nothing to hide means i have to subjugate myself to the whims of another man? is that freedom? I don't want transparancy i want privacy. I want to be left alone so long as i live within the bounds of the law, and i don't think thats asking much.

 

now this isn't to say that you don't have a point here, its just not the side i would pick.

 

SOPMOD: I agree with what your saying.

[DogMan 2,343]

I'm at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) in Charleston SC for Coast Guard Boarding Officer school and we just went over Firearms procedures and we were trained that it is the Officer's discretion to check the serial numbers of any weapon that we come across. FYI, when the CG conducts a standard boarding is it a SAFETY INSPECTION first and has no level of suspicion or probable cause unless the Office observes something in the course of the inspection that raises the level of Reasonable Suspicion that a crime has been committed. So as I've been trained LEO (or at least the CG) need no level of suspicion or probable cause to run the serial number of weapons we encounter. And just to be clear the on a CG boarding the first thing we ask the master/crew of a boat we board is if they have any weapons on board so we can secure them till the boarding is over. So as far as I know your rights were not violated. BUT.

 

I don't understand why every one's attitude is so negative toward a LEO checking out guns in your possession to see if they are in compliance with the law. Everyone on this forum is very careful to obey the laws so that we can keep our rights to own and possess weapons, and I think it is safe to say as a group we want to aggressively fight to keep and expand our gun rights also. So we should have NOTHING TO HIDE, we want LEOs on our side. Which means why not be transparent and help catch the people that are working to erode our rights by violating the law. I mean what if those cops pulled over a guy who had some of YOUR stolen guns in his car? Wouldn't you want those cops to check and see if those were stolen? It's not like a when they/we check a gun to see if it's stolen it creates a history of what guns you own, it just helps stop ILLEGAL guns. So why not be helpful? Helps us stop and catch criminals, which keeps those criminals from trashing our reputation as gun owners, and keeps LEOs on our side fighting for the rights of normal citizens. Just my 2cents.

 

Its a very basic and fundamental right that if we are doing nothing wrong we don't want to be hassled. Period. So it is precicely that we have nothing to hide that makes getting treated as though we do so objectionable. I don't care how you catch criminals, thats your problem. Leave me out of it. I'm not your guy. I'm sure you have nothing to hide in your house, too. Mind if I come take a look? If I were getting all of the rights to keep and bear arms that I am granted under the constitution without having to jump through a million Goddamn hoops then perhaps I would be a lot more willing to give a little bit. Until I do, if you step out of line I will right there to step on your toes. Have a nice day.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

He had plenty of reason to run the gun in the car... I wasn't there so i can't comment on what was said to vinn.. or what there reasoning was other than what he has said. Vehicle laws make life for cops really easy as every vehicle on the road can be stopped because the people/vehicles are making 1000different mistakes all the time. The cops probably waited for him to drive to find a reason to pull him over and check things out. As he said earlier the cop stated his windows were too dark. there is your stopping charge. The cop then has the right to search the immediate area around the driver for weapons (not drugs) used to possibly harm the officer. Because your tint is too dark a cop can decide to tow your vehicle because it is unsafe...now he can search your vehicle in what is called an inventory search. where he will collect article names and yes serial numbers off of whatever is in the car prior to towing it.

I love how something insignificant like having tint too dark means my vehicle should be towed and searched. Just becaws there are ways to make the laws oppressive dosn't mean we have to be happy that you went "easy".

[Moe Zambeak 53]

Sorry Officer, I do not consent to any warrant-less searches.

 

I value all of my rights equally. Including those described by the 5th Amendment.

[Bayoupiper 738]

Not sure why only Will would know.

 

Your information about NOPD (and the parish LEOs, too) has been published before, in many places.

 

We are not discussing New Orleans, here, but Fort Wayne, Indiana.

 

 

Because Will is wise!

 

 

I think it is rapidly becoming the same in many places as it is in New Orleans.

 

Fortunately most other places in Louisiana you will still find cops that would rather talk about guns than run them.

[nalioth 405]

He had plenty of reason to run the gun in the car... I wasn't there so i can't comment on what was said to vinn.. or what there reasoning was other than what he has said. Vehicle laws make life for cops really easy as every vehicle on the road can be stopped because the people/vehicles are making 1000different mistakes all the time. The cops probably waited for him to drive to find a reason to pull him over and check things out. As he said earlier the cop stated his windows were too dark. there is your stopping charge. The cop then has the right to search the immediate area around the driver for weapons (not drugs) used to possibly harm the officer. Because your tint is too dark a cop can decide to tow your vehicle because it is unsafe...now he can search your vehicle in what is called an inventory search. where he will collect article names and yes serial numbers off of whatever is in the car prior to towing it.

You're adding confusion to things.

 

An "inventory search" is done when a vehicle is IMPOUNDED.

 

I don't believe I've seen that mentioned here yet, by the OP.

 

 

 

By presenting his license to the police, he removed any "probable cause" (the exposed pistol) from the equation, as both open and concealed carry are legal in Indiana with a permit.

[bigmedicinewolf 0]

Most pople can't see the forest through the trees. I don't understand why so many here are rushing to justify the many creative and unconstitutional ways that out of control "peace officers" choose to violate our rights. Political groups such as the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) and the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) actively lobby members of congress to expand their power and reduce your rights. However, we all should be aware that just because Congress passes legislation, that doesn't make it Constitutionally or morally right.

 

We are losing sight of the fundamental concept of "Innocent until proven guilty." That is why probable cause is so important. The disappointing individuals who seem so ready to forfeit their Constitutional rights do a grave disservice to the rest of us. If you want a police officer to run your serial numbers, conduct a cavity search and collect a DNA sample, then that is your choice, but to justify that choice by saying, "I don't have anything to hide" is a poor defense of that choice.

[TR Young 175]

Was your Glock loaded?

This makes no bit of difference if the OP has a CCW or similar permit, no matter "how liberal the gun laws are over where you are at". That permit entitles the holder to carry loaded and concealed.

 

Are you a cop?

What, exactly, does this have to do with the OP? I think it is obvious he is not a cop, since cops typically give each other the professional courtesy of a 'pass'.

 

 

I don't care how liberal the gun laws are over where you are at. Its your kind of behavior and casualness about having firearms in public that raises the hairs of the gun controlling public.

Please explain what 'kind of behavior and casualness about having firearms in public' that the OP displayed that would 'raise the hairs' on the gun control crowd. The OP had his CCW firearm CONCEALED on his side. He did NOT move his shirt to 'flash' his firearm on purpose. His Saiga, by his own admission, was not visible. The OP did NOTHING wrong; he was confronted by a pair of LEOs who stepped on his rights.

[madmax4x4 68]

If you live in an Authoritarian Society and vote to give ANY government agency more power then you have essentially signed your rights away.A "Right Wing" person resents being hassled about bibles and guns and a "Left Wing" person resents being hassled about substances and pornography and both of them keep getting played "Left vs Right" making the intrusive Authoritarian system bigger and stronger.

 

There is no Left or Right just Authoritarian or Libertarian...

 

Defend the pothead's right to grow and smoke whatever he wants and you get your gun rights back in the process...

 

Well put man.

[SCBOWLES 0]

This just goes to show that we need more firepower... Just kidding

[Reverendfranz 160]

Was your Glock loaded?

 

Do you have a permit to carry?

 

Was your Saiga loaded?

 

Are you a cop?

 

I don't care how liberal the gun laws are over where you are at. Its your kind of behavior and casualness about having firearms in public that raises the hairs of the gun controlling public. For Gods sake treat it as a serious firearm not a toy. Stowe your Saiga properly in a case inside your trunk and unloaded. If you have a permit to carry make sure you have it on you at all times so that there is no question for you to CCW your glock.

 

I don't know what the policies of the ranges are like out there where you are but where I am, the ranges are adamant that guns be brought to the range unloaded with ammo in a separate bag. Please be more responsible and not be the "next" example that the law makers will use to further limit our 2nd amendment rights.

 

Please, please dont move out of california, as so many people of your mindset have done in recent years, practicly ruining the political environment of a number of western states. just dont do it, stay there, PLEASE.

 

The OP stated that he did have a permit, and was in compliance with the law. That doesn't have anything to do with the search.

 

Cops dont have special rights or special powers, and it isnt more acceptable for one to have a gun than it is for a law abiding citizen.

 

Gun rights are not lost because someone enjoys their responsible constitutional rights in a way you dont think is as safe as carrying your gun unloaded, disassembled, and locked into separate carrying containers equidistant from your person at all times. Gun Rights are legislatively taken with the support of a combination of gun crime rates with media sensation, and turncoats that, like you, think that there needs to be some amount of limit to our rights, in the name of "safety," "for the children" or because "hunters dont need these guns".

 

Seeing as open carry, and concealed carry both show a significant drop in crime rates, thats really a lot smarter idea than running and hiding everytime a gun comes near you for fear that you will break one of californias assinine laws, or offend the moronic mindset that so successfully brought those laws to be what passes as reality in CA. We will see how that works out for you. California gun laws are a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

As for the running of serial numbers, this is common OP in many places, No, i dont think its been upheld as legal, and personaly i dont think it is, but the fact is that an officer has a safety requirement that allows him to disarm you, (wouldnt it be nice, if for safety, he disarmed himself as well?) and when the gun is in his possession, he is told by his boss to check the stolen firearm database. Thats the way it is in almost all of the places ive lived, and as another poster stated, how federal leo's are trained. Carrying a gun is not a crime, in most places, and does not provide probably cause, but these searches are very prevalent. As to the assertion that you have nothing to hide, so you shouldnt mind, i think you have a little too much faith. For one, mistakes are made, and a number can be entered incorrectly. If they have no information connecting you to the theft of that gun with the simular SN, say you bought it used at a gun show, you probably wont be charged with theft, but unless you can prove their error (which you have no real way to do) you will probably never see that gun again, and will probably suffer legal fees. Second, The stolen firearms database is rampant with fraud. It is not unheard of for someone to walk into a pawn shop or another location and write down the serial numbers of a gun, then report that gun stolen and when the cops check pawn tickets, they will drop by to pick up the firearm. The perp who reported the firearm stolen, is hopeful that the gun will be given to them by the police, but more often than not, the pawn ticket has already been checked and the gun is never picked up, or the cops spot the fraud, but there is no garauntee that they clear the serial number from the database, so there is a chance that any used gun you buy might very well have already been reported stolen, and again, you lose not only your rights, but your gun, probably your time, and most likely your money. The same thing also happens in divorces and family feuds.

 

But, i mean, if you have nothing to hide, right, isnt all that a small price to pay? I think not.

[Surly 11]

If you live in an Authoritarian Society and vote to give ANY government agency more power then you have essentially signed your rights away.A "Right Wing" person resents being hassled about bibles and guns and a "Left Wing" person resents being hassled about substances and pornography and both of them keep getting played "Left vs Right" making the intrusive Authoritarian system bigger and stronger.

 

There is no Left or Right just Authoritarian or Libertarian...

 

Defend the pothead's right to grow and smoke whatever he wants and you get your gun rights back in the process...

 

Amen, brother. A-fucking-men.

 

Comparing the kali laws with most of the rest of the country is the apples and oranges bit. Rife with socialist stupidity should be the state motto of The People's Demokratik Bear Flag Republik of Kalifornikation. You kali guys get what you deserve for choosing to continue to reside in that bankrupt shithole that needs flushed into the Pacific. It's whiny, insignificant guys like you that move out into my fly-overs and go all to pieces when the coppers aren't oppressive enough. You then hook up with the local libs and press pass your stupid laws for everyone's protection when all you do is give scumbags more power. Stay where you're at and stay the hell out of my state.

[grendelz 61]

I think its funny because its not a lack of knowledge of the law on our part its that most police treat you like a CRIMINAL first and a CITIZEN last.

I'll give an example: my younger brother and a friend of ours wanted to go plinking with one of my rifles. A ruger 10/22 tacticooled with polymer furniture and a folding stock to be exact. Well coming back home they get pulled over by a local town cop. He sat them in the back of his police cruiser while he illegally searched their car. He found the rifle in the trunk and proceeded to tell them that he can take them to jail or confiscate my rifle. Guess what they chose? They get home and proceed to tell me what happened and I'm on the phone to the town police chief in two seconds. Here is the best part, my rifle wasn't turned into the local police department and there is no record of him confiscating it either. I had to get a private investigator that was a friend of my father involved. A month later two local cops were fired. Apparently this wasn't the first time they pulled something like this.

The US is the only free country I know of that citizens are afraid of their government, not the other way around.