Elkhound 91 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) For the sake of this thread, let us assume that you are using a shotgun as your primary home defense gun (a hand gun is the second choice or fall back gun in this scenario). Do you want your most expensive, gnarliest, most tricked out, favorite shotgun as your "go to" gun or do you want a base, much less expensive, less tricked out, shotgun for home defense? My thought process is two fold. 1. Do you want your high end shotgun held in evidence for months and months if a grand jury were to indict you; 2. Do you want your custom camouflaged; quad railed; extra shell holding; folding stock and aggressive muzzle brake affixed; beautiful shotgun waived in front of a jury? Remember, some folks who slip through the jury selection process may be anti-gun and may pre-judge you based on your "militaristic looking combat weapon." I am thinking that the "awesome" gun should be to enjoy; show off and/or shoot. But maybe that "go to" gun should be a well broken in, basic, shotgun with a light - nothing more, nothing less. Caveat: This scenario is simply to provoke thought and discussion and is not intended to raise the issue of the legalities of your "castle" defense in defending your home or any other situation in which you invoke your right to self-defense. This is much simpler. Would your home defense shotgun possibly scare, and cause concern in the minds of the uninitiated? Or maybe this line of reasoning is just an excuse to convince the spouse that you need yet another shotgun. WJ Edited June 24, 2009 by WarriorJudge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafan12345 21 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 My only shotgun is fairly simple anyway. It'd be my HD gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I've got a well-used police trade-in 12ga on deck for any boarding parties. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 You make a very good point WJ. And coming from you, it definitely makes me think about it. As good as it would be to have my tricked out S-12 I've worked so hard on, serving me the best possible way by saving mine and Sandi's life possibly, I'm pretty sure I would be real pissed if I had to give it up for even a little while. Not only that, I have serious doubts I would ever see it again. Things seem to get "lost" sometimes when they go into the evidence room.... I'm pretty sure I could get just as much use out of that beatup old Stevens I've got if the need arose. If it failed me I am sure the Glock or the .357 Ruger would not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I would like to suggest that you use a "defensive" shotgun rather than an "offensive" one. Better to shoot with grampa's shotgun than a Streetsweeper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAO-12. Also remember the gun you use will be taken into evidence and will be waved on late night TV by a DA that supported Oboma. Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 If it's a matter of life and death.. the weapon served it's purpose.... My focus would be on winning any confrontation.... I can ALWAYS get another kick ass S-12... Also, I'm protected by a well trained, beautiful woman... What court is gonna convict this all American cutie for defending her self.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmax4x4 68 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Agree 100% your home defense gun should look like it is for duck hunting. I have a camo mossy 590 for my go to gun. The long barrel sucks a little but it is OK because I live in a shotgun home. No corners except for the upstairs. I can drop someone at the front door from my toilet . Bathroom is alitte over 60ft or so from the front door. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I'm thinking the one you can count on to function. I have (5) 12ga, two have intermittent issues. As a mechanic I look at everything as tools, pick the right tool for the job. My longest open shot in the house is probably 50ft at best. To me it becomes a reliability issue and I prefer a RELIABLE semi auto due to the stress factor and decreased movement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 For the sake of this thread, let us assume that you are using a shotgun as your primary home defense gun (a hand gun is the second choice or fall back gun in this scenario). Do you want your most expensive, gnarliest, most tricked out, favorite shotgun as your "go to" gun or do you want a base, much less expensive, less tricked out, shotgun for home defense? My thought process is two fold. 1. Do you want your high end shotgun held in evidence for months and months if a grand jury were to indict you; 2. Do you want your custom camouflaged; quad railed; extra shell holding; folding stock and aggressive muzzle brake affixed; beautiful shotgun waived in front of a jury? Remember, some folks who slip through the jury selection process may be anti-gun and may pre-judge you based on your "militaristic looking combat weapon." I am thinking that the "awesome" gun should be to enjoy; show off and/or shoot. But maybe that "go to" gun should be a well broken in, basic, shotgun with a light - nothing more, nothing less. Caveat: This scenario is simply to provoke thought and discussion and is not intended to raise the issue of the legalities of your "castle" defense in defending your home or any other situation in which you invoke your right to self-defense. This is much simpler. Would your home defense shotgun possibly scare, and cause concern in the minds of the uninitiated? Or maybe this line of reasoning is just an excuse to convince the spouse that you need yet another shotgun. WJ I can't agree more, with everything you've said. I'd rather a good simple pump for HD purposes, as opposed to my S12. On top of the the reasons you stated.......another reason is, if someone were to break in when I'm not home, I'd rather a $300 pump get stolen, as opposed to a gun I have a decent amount of coin into. All of the above is going on the assumption that whatever pump I use for HD is just as reliable as my other guns. I know some may not agree, but that's my take on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 You have to remember the prosecutor is going to try to nail you with keeping a special gun handy to kill people with... That in itself will fuck your whole day... You have to prove you " were scared to death for your safety and your families, and grabbed the first thing you could get to" and it doesnt look good if everything is on hand, loaded and ready to go so to speak to "start the killing the instant a trespasser crosses the threshold"... Now... thats the modern day leftist liberal logic... which all non-sheeple must deal with.... myself included... and we all know what a crock of BULLSHIT it is!!!! Personally... I have a 9mm carbine as my go to... VERY short and compact... 10 rounds of "special" hollowpoints. two other mags in the pouch on the stock if I need more than 10... it has a 3-12 scope and a laser on it... guess what is used when things go bump in the night? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Since I am "on file" with a NFA shotty, I keep a stagecoach gun by the bed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scarbrough68289 76 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 It would depend on what room I was in! My 9mm Beretta PX4 stays in my nightstand along with a tactical 120 lumens light. I keep some handloads my buddy made for me ready to go. I know most prefer a shotgun for home defence but I trust my pistol. I have trained with it in stress training simulations and feel if a threat arose I could put the shots where they were needed. That said my Marlin 1895 "guide gun" 45-70 would put just about anyone or anything down for the count. It may not hold a high capacity but one of those monster rounds in the pelvis should be suffecient to change an assailants attitude. My pitbull lets me know if anything, including the wind, is trying to get in my house. If someone is dumb enough to come in my house it will surely suck for them. I would only shoot if I truly felt the need to defend my own or my families lives. I have been training Brazilian Jiu-jitsu for over 10 years, if they're not armed I am putting them in a body cast! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) How horrible are you going to feel if you lose a loved one in an attack/home invasion because you did not pre-select the correct firearm based on these silly concerns? Pick the most reliable and/or the one you train best/feel the most comfortable with regardless of what it is. I don't care if its a damn pristine museum condition all matching #, WWI issue 1918 BAR.. if that's what will keep you and your family safe, so be it! Edited June 25, 2009 by 690gr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 If you must use a bulky shotgun for home defense, i'd get a 870, nothing fancy, but a light at the end of it to identify intended target(s) I would prefer a full size handgun with a rail for a light instead tho....but that's my personal preference... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidewinderl 43 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 If you're that concerned about appearances, take that highly modded S12 and slap on some pink paint and hello kitty stickers. Problem solved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
A307 0 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) I keep the shotgun that I am most familiar with, the one I shoot the best and the one that I have confidence in to stop a fight no matter what it looks like, along with other nasty weapons. I'm so tired of hearing that the "prosecutor" is going after you for using xxxx gun because it was too tactical or had a scary name or whatever. If you have a righteous shooting it doesn't matter what gun you used, or what ever you had to use to save your life or your family's. If you don't believe it call up your local prosecutor and ask him if someone breaks into your house and you have to shoot to protect yourself if it makes a rats ass what kind of gun or what kind of ammo you where forced to use to save yourself. Hell, you may have to use a butcher knife if that's all that's handy. It's either a justified self defense action or not. To sell magazines or whatever many people have been confused by certain gunwriters and the same crap keeps getting repeated on the net. They take some shakey shooting incident and try to make it sound like a good guy was oppressed by the prosecutor because he used the wrong kind of gun. If I'm wrong somebody give a case number or newspaper account where somebody in the USA was CRIMINALLY prosecuted solely because of the (legal) weapon they used in a legal self defense incident. You may be sued in civil court even if it is a justified but that's not the prosecutor trying to lock you up, that's some lawyer trying to take some money from you. You take that chance anytime and anyway you make the decision to protect yourself. What matters is survival. You're going to grab the rusty duck gun you never shoot and not the S12 you shoot all the time and know like the back of your hand? I'll chose whatever legal weapon that will give me the best chance to stay above ground and be around to handle the civil case if it comes. Edited June 25, 2009 by A307 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Modiano 5 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 i fully understand some state citizens' concerns about a prosecutor holding up an "ugly black evil murder machine" in front of a jury. luckily, i live in texas. so long as i am on the right side of the law (which is pretty easy to do regarding home/property/self defense) then i don't see it making a difference what color my gun is...or if it has a "tactical" light, or "urban assault" speed loaders...god forbid, a barrel shroud! the only question the texas grand jury should have to answer is: "was i justified in using lethal force?" i own 1 Fudd Gun, an O/U double barrel i use for trap/skeet...but limiting myself to 2 rounds could be suicide in a home invasion. until i bought an S-20, my go-to gun was a black 870 HD with a tac light and extended mag...which is still in service in my roommate's room. i have full faith that 10rds of #3 buck from my S-20 will be enough to stop any home invasion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 The answer is simple, The S-12 is the first gun you see when you open my safe. Its going to be the first gun i grab. Is this pre-meditated? no, it just happens to be the gun in front of the AR, the 2 sks rifles ... and on through the collection. I keep the guns i shoot most closest to the outside like anyone else does. 12 guage ammo is the cheapest, and i do trap pretty often on the weekends(no good but i have fun). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 How horrible are you going to feel if you lose a loved one in an attack/home invasion because you did not pre-select the correct firearm based on these silly concerns? How is pre-selecting a gun to use as an HD weapon, "silly"? Do you have every gun you own, sitting out next to your bed, all lined up ready for you to choose which one to grab if someone breaks in? If not, that means there's some sort of "pre-selecting" going on, if you're picking one or two to keep handy for HD purposes. One should have as much planning as possible regarding HD scenarios, IMO. If that involves forethought as to how your choice of gun may, or may not, impact you in legal matters....what's the problem? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 If the issue is with them holding your gun if you have to use it, there's an easy fix. Buy more guns. If the issue is with being prosecuted for having a flashlight, you're being ridiculous. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 How is pre-selecting a gun to use as an HD weapon, "silly"? Do you have every gun you own, sitting out next to your bed, all lined up ready for you to choose which one to grab if someone breaks in? If not, that means there's some sort of "pre-selecting" going on, if you're picking one or two to keep handy for HD purposes. One should have as much planning as possible regarding HD scenarios, IMO. If that involves forethought as to how your choice of gun may, or may not, impact you in legal matters....what's the problem? Exactly!! All I was trying to say earlier, is that you HAVE to know what is your go to gun... It just doesnt have to be presented to any jury that you were anxiously awaiting the chance... and were "Itching to blow away" some dirtball scumbag... The " I was scared for our lives, so I opened my safe, and grabbed the first thing in it, and the first shells I could grab to load it with... " is as safe a story as you can have!! the " I know dirtbags are around all the time, so I was READY FOR THEM... That's why I keep this tactical semiauto shotgun with low light NV, triple lasers, chiseled tip floodlight, razor sharp pokey muzzlebraked, 25 rounds of different loads of buckshot, pre-staging the slugs, for when they get further away, RIGHT next to my bed... " shit just wont cut it these days... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I never gave it any thought beyond if I shoot someone they might take my weapon for a while. And I don't want some SO deputy getting pecker tracks on my S-12! I mean it's not rocket science. The coach gun is the easiest to use if I'm going from sleep to code red. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 My guns are replaceable. My family and my life are not. That said, I keep pepper spray and a handgun with a weapons light for my personal defense. If it is a punk in my backyard, then the pepper spray won't bring gang retaliation. If someone is inside my house, I will have a report on how PowRBall ammo expands in douche bags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VincentYGB 0 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 My guns are replaceable. My family and my life are not. This is rule #1. IMnotsoHO if you can't accept rule #1 you have no business even owning other firearms for protection. Or maybe you're just a "collector" (RE: Poser). I'm in no way ignoring where your rear may end up due to some money-grubber or Politico. But #1 you make certain it doesn't end up in the morgue. A weapon is a replaceable tool. So is the intruder. Family is priceless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mstranglr 9 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Great thread WJ, and good info too. I keep a bare-bones 870 police loaded with 00 as my primary home defense gun and my CCW Glock as a backup for many of the reasons that you stated. Other points to remember: A rehearsed plan of action (tactics) is 10 times more important than gun selection. Have your safe room, egress, communication lines, family member actions, danger points, etc figured out before you need them. Exploit the strengths and weaknesses of your home, it only takes a few minutes of research to realize where a break-in or ambush is likely to occur. Do some research and pay more attention to this than firearm selection. Keep your gun safes closed and LOCKED after you remove your weapon. Should you need to escape or move to a different part of your property, do not allow the criminals the opportunity to upgrade their weapons from your safe. Also, never allow warrantless police access to your gun safes. Your whole "war arsenal" will be paraded in front of the press with proud officers posing. Law enforcement can not access your locked gun safe without a warrant. Do not underestimate the importance of a good flashlight and knowledge of its use. And most important, discipline yourself to STFU and let your lawyer do his job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Great discussion and interesting ideas. I want to clarify something. My original idea/concept does not have the premise that you should or would, ever compromise the safety of your family. No, there is not a gun in my safe the is worth more than my family, including my dog - they come first. Next, if your three thousand dollar custom Saiga 12 is your "go to" weapon, more power to you. My thought process was that given a choice, it might be prudent to grab the "less scary looking" gun to defend your homestead. Money plays no roll in this thread (except as to legal fees after the fact). WJ P.S. - I am 75% collector; 15% poser; and 10% fierce - If someone breaks into my house when we are at home, they get to find out which percentage I am on that particular day. Edited June 26, 2009 by WarriorJudge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkbit 109 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I have a Teddy bear for protection..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Is it a big teddy bear or a little teddy bear? Does he pack heat? Ok, I see him now. That is one intimidating teddy bear. I would not cross paths with him! Oh, as to which shotgun to select for home defense, I agree with the concept that you pick the one you are most comfortable with and most proficient with. My first choice is an 870 police, with a surefire LED light. No rails, no saddle; no gnarly muzzle device. But, I guess that is what lawyers do, we worry about things you should not have to worry about - I have even wondered if it should be an "express" and not a "Police" version. Does the "Police" version paint me as a "weapons expert, a gun nut poser wanna-be? Probably not, but I think of things like that. However, I was actually a prosecutor many years ago - I would have played up the use of an "AK - 47 aggressive, military style, shotgun" if given the chance. Like it or not, the basic shotgun is "less threatening" if you will, to the general population. Look how much publicity shootings which involve AK 47 assualt weapons get - the press eats that stuff up. Saiga shotguns are awesome. I really like them or I would not be here. Just give some thought to your home defense plan. Be smart, consider every angle and possibility, even how subsequent legal actions might play out. WJ Edited June 26, 2009 by WarriorJudge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I based my gun selection on personal experiences witnessed sitting on several juries over the years. I have been absolutely amazed and shocked at the response of individuals when challenged on the evidence we heard in court. "I don't care what they said in court, I think he did it". Now that's real scary to me. My wife is an officer of the court and you would be absolutely shocked at the stories she would share. The law is one thing but perception is everything. F. Lee Bailey once said the jury is the weakest link in the system and I believe that to be absolutely correct. Also for folks that own their own businesses owning a second weapon is a must. Once the authorities take the weapon you just shot the crack head with, you don't want to be caught empty handed waiting for your day in court. It may sound really cool to have this and that and I will do this and that but the bottom line you never want to shoot anyone unless absolutely necessary. That is the reason a pump shotgun is my first choice. The reasoning and hope for me is that the criminal understands the non-verbal communication it provides and will sprout wings and fly. Be safe and be sure, Good luck! Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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