Is the Double-Stack S12 Mag idea dead?

[ItsAllCreated 59]

Its just been so long since I heard about any progress towards it ....does anybody know anything new?

[SaigaKen 338]

Havent heard a peep from MD arms since the importation stoppage rumors early in the year

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Its just been so long since I heard about any progress towards it ....does anybody know anything new?

I saw Elvis at the range with one last week.

 

Seriously, I'm not holding my breath for them. I am sure I'm not the only one here that isn't happy about this aborted mission.

[veprk 12]

Funny thing is I waited to stock up on mags in hopes of getting DS mags. I just made a order for a bunch of agp's cuz who knows when or if. I will still buy a shit ton of the DS mags if they show up. Little frustrating tho, like waiting for your first girlfriend to say she's ready

[haugpatr 972]

As I understand it: MD Arms just expanded their production facility, they have left direct sales of their products and will strictly focus on manufacturing and let distributors handle the sales of their products. The double stack has been designed and patented, however they are switching over to build quad stack ak mags, starting in 5.45x39.

 

MD ARMS is probably the best thing to ever happen to the Saiga-12 market and the customer service I received from MD when I ordered my drums from them was second to none!

Mike is a business man and I think he is doing the right thing switching to the quads, the double stack will arrive, be patient I am sure it will be worth the wait!

 

Some people complain about it taking to long, maybe these people should just build one of their own? It would only cost thousands of dollars and require hundreds of hours.

 

Be patient and be thankful for the MD drum, don't act like a spoiled child because you don't have it yet.

 

This isn't directed towards anyone, just my opinion on the issue.

 

 

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Little frustrating tho, like waiting for your first girlfriend to say she's ready

 

In this case, you can just f^*k her older sister while you're waiting, who happens to be the MD20

Edited August 24, 2011 by Mullet Man

[veprk 12]

Dont care for the ugly sister. Tho I have banged her a few times lol

Edited August 24, 2011 by veprk

[ItsAllCreated 59]

This isnt really a MD Arms thread. I beleive other companies had plans for it too.

 

But as far as MD goes... I wouldnt say MD Arms is the best thing to happen to the S12. I think they only ever made like 2 parts (gas plug & 20rnd Drum).

I think its probably the other way around... The S12 is the best thing to happen to MD.

Which is why I can understand Loyal MD customers ("S12" customers) are disappointed that they got dropped after all the support they gave MD.

 

And as far as the MD20 goes.... I truly believe everyone when they say that their drum mag is awesome, but honestly "my" MD20 has never fired a full 20rnds without a failure (im not exaggerating "never").

Its VERY hard to load (compared to any mag I've ever loaded) and the dang thing just won't give me a full cycle without a hickup. That said I wouldnt ever sell it (cause its still a cool toy), but at the same time I don't use it much cause its bulky and not really functional (so it just doesnt get used)

 

I kinda feel like thats what happened to the S12 DS.

Its probably possible with custom one-off creations, but not really producible

 

I rember seeing a video where Jack Travers of JT Engineering mentioned Sure Fire was coming out with a Double Stack Mag too

 

It just seems as if the idea has fallen off a cliff

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

+1

 

I don't care who does it, if it is reliable.... I will buy one

 

It has been said before, but most of us were disappointed at how we were lead and built up for the release of the DS mags in 2011 only to be jilted, so far. Maybe Mike will surprise us with a release that is just in time to make it under some Christmas trees. No quads out yet is bad news for the DS mags though

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

This isnt really a MD Arms thread. I beleive other companies had plans for it too.

 

But as far as MD goes... I wouldnt say MD Arms is the best thing to happen to the S12. I think they only ever made like 2 parts (gas plug & 20rnd Drum).

I think its probably the other way around... The S12 is the best thing to happen to MD.

Which is why I can understand Loyal MD customers ("S12" customers) are disappointed that they got dropped after all the support they gave MD.

 

And as far as the MD20 goes.... I truly believe everyone when they say that their drum mag is awesome, but honestly "my" MD20 has never fired a full 20rnds without a failure (im not exaggerating "never").

Its VERY hard to load (compared to any mag I've ever loaded) and the dang thing just won't give me a full cycle without a hickup. That said I wouldnt ever sell it (cause its still a cool toy), but at the same time I don't use it much cause its bulky and not really functional (so it just doesnt get used)

 

I kinda feel like thats what happened to the S12 DS.

Its probably possible with custom one-off creations, but not really producible

 

I rember seeing a video where Jack Travers of JT Engineering mentioned Sure Fire was coming out with a Double Stack Mag too

 

It just seems as if the idea has fallen off a cliff

I have owned a few MD-20s and never had a problem with them that was related directly to the mag except when I ran the spring tension at 2.5 turns on my first 5 drums. It took me one range trip to figure out that was a bad idea. What ammo are you using? The shells could be slightly too long and could be binding in the drum. Your S12 may not be running quite good enough to overcome the resistance of a fully loaded drum. Let me know if you need help with it. I know a little

[pedal2alloy 206]

You guys are just not very good at waiting.

 

It takes longer than you think to develop shit like this.

[TwentyNizzo 66]

I don't really care about doublestacks anymore. Nothing beats OEM mags.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I don't really care about doublestacks anymore. Nothing beats OEM mags.

I feel the same way.

[madmax4x4 68]

You guys are just not very good at waiting.

 

It takes longer than you think to develop shit like this.

 

Develop??? But he has one, and has had one for 2 years

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/44279-double-stack-12ga-magazine-for-saiga-12/

[Jpanzer 1,265]

VAPORWARE.....

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

VAPORWARE.....

Nope.... blueballs

[elvis christ 451]

At some point, Tony said he had used an MD double stack and it functioned flawlessly. So technically they alway exist in some capacity.

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Maybe those Paki gun cobblers will be the first to get it to market!

[Mephis 82]

I don't understand what's so damn hard about a company making even a NORMAL magazine that would be suitable for military use?

 

I don't care if it's just a US made 5 rounder. I want some magazines around that are made to survive more than just the range, and not a massive heavy hillbilly mega-capacity mag.

AGP and surefires have their place at the range, if I have to depend on the gun to do anything more important than that, the OEM 5 rounder is going in. If I could afford OEM 8s when they show up, I would, but so far I've never been lucky.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Tombs

[Jpanzer 1,265]

How about if I train a monkey to make double stack S12 mags, market it through Century, and then bitch because the quality isn't up to Russian OEM standards? That should be about equal with the mythical MD Arms doublestacks shouldn't it?

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...No quads out yet is bad news for the DS mags though

 

Waiting on the double-stacks is getting frustrating. I'm thinking about spending the money I'd set aside for MD S-12 ds mags on another Glock, (a Gen 3 19), instead.

Edited August 26, 2011 by post-apocalyptic

[Paulyski 2,227]

This isnt really a MD Arms thread. I beleive other companies had plans for it too.

 

But as far as MD goes... I wouldnt say MD Arms is the best thing to happen to the S12. I think they only ever made like 2 parts (gas plug & 20rnd Drum).

I think its probably the other way around... The S12 is the best thing to happen to MD.

Which is why I can understand Loyal MD customers ("S12" customers) are disappointed that they got dropped after all the support they gave MD.

He was a dude with a tree trimming service & a property that put everything he had on the line to make the drum reality.

When people saw the S-12 with a 20 round drum it blew them away & the true awesome potential of the S-12 came to light.

 

Before the MD-20, it was just an average semi-auto shotgun.

There's another Chinese mag fed shotgun out there, but there's no drum for it.

I think there's a reason 95% of the viewers here won't be able to remember the name of that gun off the top of their head.

Because it's just another average low capacity semi-auto shotgun.

 

And as far as the MD20 goes.... I truly believe everyone when they say that their drum mag is awesome, but honestly "my" MD20 has never fired a full 20rnds without a failure (im not exaggerating "never").

Its VERY hard to load (compared to any mag I've ever loaded) and the dang thing just won't give me a full cycle without a hickup. That said I wouldnt ever sell it (cause its still a cool toy), but at the same time I don't use it much cause its bulky and not really functional (so it just doesnt get used)

If your stick mags run well but not the MD-20, that's just because of the added spring tension pressing the shells against the bolt harder than a stick mag does.

 

That's the primary reason that I profile the bolt in Pauly's GlassBolt System the way I do to keep power in the extraction cycle as shells are pressed hard against the bolt that must rotate, then extract over those shells that press against the bolt.

 

Your issue can be addressed.

The MD-20's reliability when feeding is on par with the Russian mags.

 

I kinda feel like thats what happened to the S12 DS.

Its probably possible with custom one-off creations, but not really producible

 

I rember seeing a video where Jack Travers of JT Engineering mentioned Sure Fire was coming out with a Double Stack Mag too

 

It just seems as if the idea has fallen off a cliff

If a guy puts all his eggs in one basket he's vulnerable.

When the S-12 importation scare came about, many of us who have everything invested in the S-12 platform realized how fragile our businesses were.

It would be foolish if he didn't diversify ASAP.

Making a working prototype is one thing, but making the tooling to make production models & working the bugs out can take time & money.

It's vital that they branch out into more mainstream markets to ensure that if the BATFE makes a random statement against the S-12 one day, Mike doesn't find himself with a shop full of useless equipment that he's looking to sell so he can buy a chainsaw & rigging to go back to working on trees.

 

Mike is not some major industrialist master of industry with market research departments.

He's just a dude with good ideas who works to bring them into fruition & doesn't cut corners to compromise quality or reliability.

 

Maybe it's a mistake to get excited when one gets an idea or crosses a milestone & then mention it on a web forum that at one time was a small community where you spoke amongst friends, but it's a catch 22.

One must gauge a market's demand before investing into a large project.

 

Some here remember when Mike used to post here & share sound technical information.

Now on the other hand, every time he shows his face, he's bombarded by scores of people with an undue sense of entitlement hounding him about the same thing over & over.

He gauged the market, he has a prototype, he didn't take anybody's money, he doesn't owe anybody anything.

If someone's manic episode ends & their S-12 phase dies out before the doublestacks are released, so be it. The guy who buys the firearm from them will eventually love the doublestacks when they eventually are released, but Mike would be a fool if he didn't focus on the more mainstream platforms to ensure his company's longevity to make sure he can support Lauren & his employees.

 

Is there any confusion as to why he decided it would be more productive to give the distribution to Copes so he can just focus on production & process development?

[Peckaldee 12]

Here, Here Pauly

 

I stand and applaud you sir. Well said.

[haugpatr 972]

This isnt really a MD Arms thread. I beleive other companies had plans for it too.

 

But as far as MD goes... I wouldnt say MD Arms is the best thing to happen to the S12. I think they only ever made like 2 parts (gas plug & 20rnd Drum).

I think its probably the other way around... The S12 is the best thing to happen to MD.

Which is why I can understand Loyal MD customers ("S12" customers) are disappointed that they got dropped after all the support they gave MD.

He was a dude with a tree trimming service & a property that put everything he had on the line to make the drum reality.

When people saw the S-12 with a 20 round drum it blew them away & the true awesome potential of the S-12 came to light.

 

Before the MD-20, it was just an average semi-auto shotgun.

There's another Chinese mag fed shotgun out there, but there's no drum for it.

I think there's a reason 95% of the viewers here won't be able to remember the name of that gun off the top of their head.

Because it's just another average low capacity semi-auto shotgun.

 

And as far as the MD20 goes.... I truly believe everyone when they say that their drum mag is awesome, but honestly "my" MD20 has never fired a full 20rnds without a failure (im not exaggerating "never").

Its VERY hard to load (compared to any mag I've ever loaded) and the dang thing just won't give me a full cycle without a hickup. That said I wouldnt ever sell it (cause its still a cool toy), but at the same time I don't use it much cause its bulky and not really functional (so it just doesnt get used)

If your stick mags run well but not the MD-20, that's just because of the added spring tension pressing the shells against the bolt harder than a stick mag does.

 

That's the primary reason that I profile the bolt in Pauly's GlassBolt System the way I do to keep power in the extraction cycle as shells are pressed hard against the bolt that must rotate, then extract over those shells that press against the bolt.

 

Your issue can be addressed.

The MD-20's reliability when feeding is on par with the Russian mags.

 

I kinda feel like thats what happened to the S12 DS.

Its probably possible with custom one-off creations, but not really producible

 

I rember seeing a video where Jack Travers of JT Engineering mentioned Sure Fire was coming out with a Double Stack Mag too

 

It just seems as if the idea has fallen off a cliff

If a guy puts all his eggs in one basket he's vulnerable.

When the S-12 importation scare came about, many of us who have everything invested in the S-12 platform realized how fragile our businesses were.

It would be foolish if he didn't diversify ASAP.

Making a working prototype is one thing, but making the tooling to make production models & working the bugs out can take time & money.

It's vital that they branch out into more mainstream markets to ensure that if the BATFE makes a random statement against the S-12 one day, Mike doesn't find himself with a shop full of useless equipment that he's looking to sell so he can buy a chainsaw & rigging to go back to working on trees.

 

Mike is not some major industrialist master of industry with market research departments.

He's just a dude with good ideas who works to bring them into fruition & doesn't cut corners to compromise quality or reliability.

 

Maybe it's a mistake to get excited when one gets an idea or crosses a milestone & then mention it on a web forum that at one time was a small community where you spoke amongst friends, but it's a catch 22.

One must gauge a market's demand before investing into a large project.

 

Some here remember when Mike used to post here & share sound technical information.

Now on the other hand, every time he shows his face, he's bombarded by scores of people with an undue sense of entitlement hounding him about the same thing over & over.

He gauged the market, he has a prototype, he didn't take anybody's money, he doesn't owe anybody anything.

If someone's manic episode ends & their S-12 phase dies out before the doublestacks are released, so be it. The guy who buys the firearm from them will eventually love the doublestacks when they eventually are released, but Mike would be a foool if he didn't focus on the more mainstream platforms to ensure his companies longevity & make sure he can support Lauren & his employees.

 

Is there any confusion as to why he decided it would be more productive to give the distribution to Copes so he can just focus on production & process development?

 

 

Thanks Pauly for your first responae above, you were able to make the argument better than me that the MD made the S-12 what it is today! Very well said

Edited August 26, 2011 by HOG76

[erwos 12]

*shrugs* I think some of the immediate need for double stack mags was taken care of by the smaller ProMag drums. Yeah, they're not going to fly for competitions where mag change times count, but as a range solution, they're not horrible.

[tokinshitload 12]

I love that little 12rd drum pro mag came out with! It does do the job of giving you a compact high capacity capability. A double stack would be nice, but there is a folding stock mech. that works with drums now so the only advantage with a double stack would be if it were over 12 rds.

[Alpha Kilo 42]

That and it not having plastic clips holding the cover on. Those are a major turn off and probably not going to last long term. I don't recall ever seeing clips like that that haven't gotten brittle over time. Maybe it's an advanced something or other, I dunno. I like the way they look except for the clips though.

[tokinshitload 12]

I haven't broken any clips yet, but people say the cover stays on even if they are all broken. Maybe its the bolt in the middle that hold it together. Ive never taken it apart to find out. The clips did bother me as well, but so does a all plastic magazine.I guess we take what we can get.

Edited August 26, 2011 by xacex

[Alpha Kilo 42]

Yeah I hear ya on that, just makes ya wonder sometime why they don't study things a little harder before they go into production. That's good that they stay on anyway because of the center bolt though, I might have to give one a shot after all. The size/capacity is bad ass, there's no denying that.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

And as far as the MD20 goes.... I truly believe everyone when they say that their drum mag is awesome, but honestly "my" MD20 has never fired a full 20rnds without a failure (im not exaggerating "never").

Its VERY hard to load (compared to any mag I've ever loaded) and the dang thing just won't give me a full cycle without a hickup. That said I wouldnt ever sell it (cause its still a cool toy), but at the same time I don't use it much cause its bulky and not really functional (so it just doesnt get used)

 

 

I on the other hand have never, had a malfunction that I could attribute to the MD20.

Thinking hard on it... I don't think I've had a mal while using either of my MD20s?

Edited August 27, 2011 by ChileRelleno