Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
froggiefun45 0 Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LooneyTunes 0 Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 count me in for 3 mags. thanks!!! 8^) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 GD! I wish I had the passion of McUZI. I'm way to laid back and simply state the Rulings/Laws and link refence letters. At times, I've combined the doublespeak logic of the ATF interpretations to paint scenarios of what future rulings may occur.... but Mac's is perfectly correct on this topic - again. I suppose I need a little more pi$$ and vinegar in my veins because I friggin' love reading Mac's retorts. As for the offer on the Saiga, it's great to see someone put their balls on the table and 'call out' others to do the same. Keep it coming... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 This is interesting. I love it when McUzi lays into somebody. Try not to take it too hard Whisper, hes a very animated member. I am flipping through a large collection of ATF letters right now, and it looks like McUzi is right on target. Most of these letters go back into the "ban" days, but even then there are not many limitations on building high caps that are considered preban. Now that the ban is lifted (in non comunist states) it looks like all the mag making is legal again. I was originally looking for the letter that addresses building a pistol or "handgun" from a new AK reciever Letter 7 But found a few good ones on this topic. Letter 8 Somebody should sticky this website, its free and its the largest post of ATF opinions and letters that I have ever seen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 McUzi- I love ya man! Never call a spade a spade, It's a god damn mfi'n SHOVEL!! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Whisper 0 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) Edited March 31, 2005 by Whisper Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga Saga 7 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I'll take two if they are all plastic and four if they have a steel reinforced front catch lip because this seems to be a weak point on the factory mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Man I'm definately in for at least one just to have sometihing different. If it functions flawlessly I will get many. Keep us updated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JakeThePimp 0 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Put me down for one if under $50 two if under $35. -JTP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Just one thing, the moment I told her that I was considering building hi caps she stated that I would need a FFL to do so. (shrug) I have no ruling info yet but I asked for it and she promised it to me. We will see what is on the service tomorrow. OK, so here is where we are at. You are total fucking moron, and that ATF agent is a total fucking moron. As someone who has had the distinct displeasure of dealing with the ATF on 3 different occasions, let me tell you how this little discourse will go. You) (drools on self) Is it legal to make Saiga 12 magazines? Whoever you got at ATF) (thinks for a minute) I don't think so. Let me ask my supervisor You) (gets confused look on face) ATF) OK, I asked my supervisor, and she informed me that all magazines are required to be made by a Federal Firearms Licensee You) (farts on hand and smells it) Can you tell me the law that says this? (we all know you are too stupid to ask this question, but let's just pretend for a second that you aren't) ATF) (pages turning in the background) Let me get back to you... . . . . . . . . . . . . . And she will either A) Never get back to you Get back to you, but with incorrect information (like her absolutley laughable, totally incorrect assertation that it "requires a FFL to make magazines") C) Actually get back to you with the correct information (this is about a 1-100 chance) As I said before, calling the ATF and asking whatever random agent you happen to get on the phone the complexities of firearms laws is akin to asking the guy behind the counter at Wal Mart the basic principles of retail economics and marketing theory. I just realized that being a total fucking moron is an affliction that can be cured. Being an "incurable moron" is being that moron who isn't able to seek out the knowledge from the proper sources he inherently lacks. Thus, he will remain a moron forever and ever, wandering the globe asking cactuses for water, bums for spare change and cops for information on gun laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 they're actually pretty good at getting back to you. i prefer letters though cuz they send you a lot more definitive info (specific laws, regs, etc)... whisper, you got the hide of a rhino. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stimpsonjcat 0 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Well this is a lively discussion! I'll chime in what I hope will be a bit helpful. The 'F' in ATF stands for firearms. The rub (for ATF) is that they have to pick a specific part of the firearm and say 'this part is the firearm', at this point everything else is just parts. Now most of the time the 'firearm' is the part where you stick the magazine (this is the lower on an AR for instance while it is the upper on a FAL). This part gets all the complicated legal markings, and in general, is the piece you least want to mess with. This is the only part they have any real control over. Believe it or not, you can even make your own receiver, as long as you are not a convict, and as long as you aren't planning to sell it. They'd prefer you mark it with a unique marking (I prefer cartoon characters) but you don't even really have to do that. If you ever knew 'they' were coming to take your firearms, you could take them all apart and just hand in the receivers, again, everything else is just a part. This is why you can buy parts kits, mags, and bling-bling accessories all day long without restriction, but have to go thru an FFL to get the receiver. So McUZI (dude, watch the caffeine) is correct, make all the mags you like. Heck you can even modify existing mags to take more rounds. The only restriction on mags was the importation and manufacture limit imposed by the 1994 crime ban, and that is toast. Now ATF *can* restrict what you do with all these parts. I.E. it is not a good idea to have M16 fire control parts if you have an AR15, as they have precedent in court saying this is 'intent to build' a machinegun. Likewise, while import parts kits are legal to buy, you can't simply assemble one on a new receiver without using an appropriate number of US made parts to make it legal. But the parts themselves have no restrictions. I do hope this helped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Ranger 0 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 You know what, For what I'm about to say, I'm going to take a lot of shit, but fuck-it, I've had it dished out by better for longer periods of time. I think it pretty pathetic when we get armchair lawyers, who have nothing to lose what-so-ever if the parties involved in this investment find themselves in trouble, flaming other members simply because they are advising caution. So to this I say: Mc, chill out brother. We all know you're cool, un-arguably the coolest member on this board, and the smartest too, and most likely, the best looking with the most money and coolest toys. We still love you. Now, that being said. If Motorcity makes 1000 magazines, and I think we all can agree that he probably has nothing to worry about, and for some reason the ATF decides to take him to court and he looses thousands of dollars and his RTBA for the rest of his life, McUzi and the rest of us will have lost nothing, while he lost everything. So, isn't a little caution a good thing considering the alternatives? If Motor puts off production for a few months, but determines that there are no legal bariers, and goes ahead and makes those mags, we're all happy. He's confident in his legality, and we get our mags. We've waited this long, we can wait a little longer. Motor, do what you gotta do. Don't listen to any armchair lawyers. And when you're ready, put me down for 2 of those mags. 1st Ranger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Make sure you guys wipe off your chins when your all done sucking McUzi off........... You'd hate for folks to see your true nature........... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rochte 0 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) [Expurgated] Edited April 4, 2005 by rochte Quote Link to post Share on other sites
froggiefun45 0 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Well I must say... I hate having to agree with most people and usualy dont... but I for 1 know That I didn't want to be the cause of a dd classification on theise things. It like my kid. And i dont want to loose it. But on the other hand it is hungry. and a 12 ga can eat a lot more than 5 if ya catch my drift. So as long as motocityman, i believe his name is... does not open shop and advertise a dd in the making whch i doubt he will as he will be out his profit, then we can all keep our kids. (winks) catch my drift. by the way... for the drifter from the big bad atf browses threw forums like these... well lets just say that highliting passages from the "law" makes it look like qustionable material is being discussed. so ladies and gents... I urge you to keep your balls attached, negative attitudes to your selfs, and and your guns in your possetion... and with that... Good Day! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LooneyTunes 0 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 well said rochte. from my limited vantage point this seems to be the real crux of the issue. i.e., if high capacity (8 rounds or over?) 12g magazines become readily available over time will ATF then declare the saiga 12g shotgun a DD (destructive device)? seems to me that the hi-cap mags are legal to make right now, but it may not go unnoticed by the ATF over time. so do you exercise your freedoms while the giant sleeps or do you play it safe & give up your current rights to avoid a possible confrontation with the giant in the future? each forum member knows which camp they would stand in given the choice. a hawks versus doves kind of thing. the political climate seems somewhat favorable toward gun owners (at least compared to clinton's era) so maybe the ATF's hands are somewhat tied on this issue right now. time will tell. i sure hope so!!! 8^) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Now, that being said. If Motorcity makes 1000 magazines, and I think we all can agree that he probably has nothing to worry about, and for some reason the ATF decides to take him to court and he looses thousands of dollars and his RTBA for the rest of his life, McUzi and the rest of us will have lost nothing, while he lost everything. So, isn't a little caution a good thing considering the alternatives? If Motor puts off production for a few months, but determines that there are no legal bariers, and goes ahead and makes those mags, we're all happy. He's confident in his legality, and we get our mags. We've waited this long, we can wait a little longer. Motor, do what you gotta do. Don't listen to any armchair lawyers. And when you're ready, put me down for 2 of those mags. 1st Ranger <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No one has a problem with being careful. I do have a problem with retards who are incorrect, yet prance around like they are right, or have anything resembling a clue. THERE ARE NO FED LAWS AGAINST MAKING MAGAZINES. NONE. ZERO. YOU CAN MAKE 300 ROUND MAGAZINES FOR USAS12 DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE SHOTGUNS IF YOU WANT, AND THERE IS NO PAPERWORK REQUIRED. YOU CAN MAKE A 5000 ROUND MAGAZINE THAT HOLDS 20MM VULCAN ROUNDS, AND THERE ARE NO LAWS AGAINST IT, SINCE MAGAZINES AREN'T RESTRICTED. YOU CAN OWN, TRANSFER OR MANUFACTURE MAGAZINES OF ANY KIND WITHOUT A LICENSE, PERIOD, END OF STORY Now, that is the truth. Fact, pure and simple. It isn't "opinion" or it isn't a hypothetical, it is just the way things are. All one need to is call ATF LEGAL DEPARTMENT (IM me and i'll even give you the number) and ask them. The End. Don't ask field offices, as they won't understand. All they will do is tell you "no" to be safe, and then ask the legal department themselves. The only reason I absolutley hate people like him down to the very fabric of my fat ass is that they insist on adding bullshit into otherwise productive discourses. In this case, here we have a man who is PERFECTLY LEGAL IN MAKING THIS PRODUCT yet there is now "doubt" because some dumbfuck chimed up with his own ignorance and caused it to happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 My god, an even worse drooler has entered for fray... Obviously, there is no specific regulation about magazine capacity. But you can refer to the definition of "destructive device" in 27 CFR 479.11 to understand how they will handle this if you push the high-cap magazine issue. There is no specific regulation regarding magazine capacity, there is no specific prohibition on making magazines of any kind. Since that was the entire premise of what we are saying here, then that pretty much ends your post from the first words. But for teh sake of sport... That's how my USAS-12 became a DD and that's how the Saiga will also become a DD if high-cap mags begin to proliferate. No, you mouth breathing fucktard, that isn't how "your" USAS12 became a DD.When "hi cap mags proliferated". USAS12's had hi cap mags from the outset. There was never a time when USAS 12's existed when Hi Caps didn't. If you walked into a store in 1988 and bought a USAS12 and asked the man behind the counter "I think i'd like a magazine under 5 rounds to do some deer hunting with for this USAS12", he would have laughed at you, because one never existed. They became DD's when someone at teh ATF realized that they could nail them as being "unsporting" using the bore criteria from the 1968 GCA. You are saying that USAS's became DD's when "hicap mags became available" and I am telling you are wrong (and a retard) as hicap mags were ALWAYS available for USAS12's. Now go ahead - tell me that it takes a drum magazine to fail the "sporting purposes" test... Go ahead, I dare you! Then it will be your turn to "show me this documentation"! I won't tell you that because it isn't the legal case, although "drum" was mentioned in the writing of the reclassification. You can jump up and down and call people names all that you want, but the fact remains that it only takes a stroke of the Director's pen to turn the Saiga into a DD. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for that.What in god name does that have to do with a guy who wants to make some Saiga magazines, and whether it is legal or not? Moron...Ya see, reading comprehension is essential to things like this. Go find some, come back and try again... (I can PM you my FFL's address if you'd like to send the free shotgun now... ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you promise you will never breed and infect the gene pool with offspring as fucking stupid as you are, I will consider giving you a Saiga just for the benefit of mankind. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 (edited) Edited April 1, 2005 by pistonring8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 This is way more interesting than the Troll issue on the Moderator thread. Much more funnt too!! Although I must say this subject has been hashed and rehashed time and again over past months. The conclusion is always the same: there is no law prohibiting the building of high caps or drums and it takes a single stroke of the pen to declare the Saiga a destructive device. It doesn't take a genius IQ to understand how to avoid such a declaration. There is one thing I know for sure. I would not want to be on the legal and economic end of having produced say a Saiga drum for the S-12 and have it used in a crime or serious accident. Lawyers are notorious for naming everyone remotely involved in law suits including the manufacturer. I like my house, cars, guns, and other toys. But then, that's just me. But what the hell. Let the bashing, humor and bullshit continue. It's entertaining anyway!!! Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LooneyTunes 0 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 here ye, here ye for Wolverine. well said. that would be the bottom line for me too, not wanting to get caught in a lawsuit as a manufacturer. makes the issue of the ATF & being declared a DD pale in comparison. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Grau_Tek 0 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Quote of the day: "you mouth breathing fucktard" i ruv it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 IS this the point at which someone again posts that picture of "how smart I am, after reading this post" LOL VERY entertaining INDEED! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JakeThePimp 0 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 It was dicussed before, but how about makeing a 5 rounder with a little "breathing" room on the bottom? If there are not any rules on what the mag can hold, there isn't any rules what a mag has to look like. In stock form your "5 rounder" can be a whole lot less friendly then the factory 5 rounder ie. longer. By doing that you get past any DD issues, and in the event of legal action your a little safer from the bloodsucking layers. If you want a little incentive on how hard up we are for mags, do a search on ebay for saiga, you'll see. -JTP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rochte 0 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 (edited) [Expurgated] Edited April 4, 2005 by rochte Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jman 0 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 I just received a letter from the BATF because I was inquiring about importing some mags for myself in small quantity, that "in short" says that they are going to announce a ruling that ALL semi-auto shotguns that are capable of holding more than 5 rounds of ammo (which means anything that has a detachable mag. etc.) is going to be declared a destructive device and all importation of such parts to convert existing shotguns will become illegal (This includes all magazines over 5 rounds capacity). And this is supposed to happen within 2-3 months. What can we do about this! Can't they give us a break? I guess I'll have to buy everything while I still can. Life's a bitch sometimes. Jman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 In light of the Hawks vs. Doves comparrison, I'd like to quote the late Johnny Cash. When asked his position on the war in Vietnam, he said "I'm a dove... with claws." This is all pointless to worry about. The ATF is going to do what the ATF does, and that's it. I have a feeling that if the Saiga isn't a DD yet, it probably won't be. Does anyone know exactly how long it took for the USAS and the StreetSweeper to be declared DDs? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stimpsonjcat 0 Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 I just received a letter <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Any chance you can post a scan of this letter? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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