New Saiga Competitor

[Will486 7]

If you've been keeping up with the SHOT show, you might've already heard about it. I thought I'd let all you Saiga 12 owners out there know there's a new kid on the block. CMMG has developed a prototype AR-based, piston-driven, semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun. It's considerably smaller than traditional 12 gauge AR adaptations, with approximately the same dimensions as an everyday AR, minus the right side bolt carrier handle. I bet it only takes 2 3/4", though. We'll see. Doesn't look like its just an upper conversion, looks like the lower is proprietary as well. Also looks like it will be compatible with AR stocks out of the box, comes with a machined rail system and a billet receiver which is more than we can say. I can only hope that they turn out to be as reliable as normal ARs, but with that piston system I dunno... The Saiga may lose its claim to fame as the best handling, most reliable and most ass kicking automatic 12 gauge on the market. We'll see..

 

 

[ChowDog 2]

Looks kind of cool. I'm not a big fan of AR's, though, so I probably won't get one.

 

Now if they made one that looked like a FAL...

[sudaevpps43 31]

So did CMMG display that 12 gauge AR shotgun at the SHOT show again this year? I know they had it on display at the 2009 SHOT show, but I hadn't heard they had brought it out again for the 2010 SHOT show (in fact I hadn't heard anything about it since the 2009 SHOT show).

Edited January 28, 2010 by Frogfoot

[saigafreake 27]

any info on its msrp? im bettin its atleast twice what an s12 cost.

[volkov 318]

maybe since it's not rusky they will get some to our boys in the field.. apart from that I'm happy with my saiga.. I prefer AK's anyway

[Bridis 319]

Saiga 12 $550.00. I bet the CCMG 12 will be at least $950.00. $400.00 extra for what? I'll stick with the Saiga.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Bridis

[lance 4]

That lower reciever is their .308 lower for HK G3 magazines. I have one on the way. I wonder what kind of mods you have to do to the G3 mags to feed 12 gauge shells?

I may have to get this upper to go with my .308...

[Will486 7]

Saiga 12 $550.00. I bet the CCMG 12 will be at least $950.00. $400.00 extra for what? I'll stick with the Saiga.

 

Thats the only reason I can think of not to get one. But, on the other hand, Ive always maintained that the price of your weapon is that last thing youre going to think about when theres someone in your house a 3 am. I may have to pick on up as well, if only to compare it to the Saiga.

[Apache 4]

Well, at least now the AR guys can play with the big boys ...

[Razorback 72]

That CMMG kinda resembles the OLD USAS-12 without the carry handle. Man those were fun to shoot, but this looks smaller and lighter (lots of recoil), I wonder if anyone has made a magazine/drum for it yet?!!!! LOL

 

edited to remove term used to describe a bucket of bullets

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2010 by Razorback

[nalioth 405]

That CMMG kinda resembles the OLD USAS-12 without the carry handle. Man those were fun to shoot, but this looks smaller and lighter (lots of recoil), bet they don't have a drum, or any High Cap. mags for it yet!!!! LOL

Can we give this a rest?

 

It's a meaningless phrase coined by antigun zealots.

 

Magazine capacity is designed into each weapon. No designer sits down to make a gun "that take high caps", they design a gun that works for a purpose they have in mind. If that design means 30 round capacity magazines, that makes them "designed capacity", not "high capacity".

[6500rpm 670]

I was talking to them about that gun at a St Louis show this past weekend and was told it's been put on the back burner for now?

[volkov 318]

Cmon Nailoth.. What was he going to say? "Oh no they don't have any mags for it yet that can hold more bullets than your typical mag?"

 

It's a high capacity mag.. deal with it.. Just because the anti gunners try to use them to ban guns doesn't mean we should be afraid to use the term.. It's just easier to say than "magazine with lots of bullets"

Edited January 28, 2010 by volkov

[KrisFox 69]

I was talking to them about that gun at a St Louis show this past weekend and was told it's been put on the back burner for now?

 

Translation = We can't get it to work OR it will cost way too much.

[nalioth 405]

Well, perhaps showing my age here, but when I see a shotgun (or any firearm) designed for military/defense, I assume it'll have a nice large capacity magazine. One that "holds lots of bullets", ya know?

 

At which point, that's the "intended" or "designed" capacity for the gun.

 

At which point, I'd just call it a "CMMG shotgun magazine" and expect folks to know that it holds "a lot of bullets".

 

Same as saying "AR mag" - you know AR mags hold 20 or 30 rounds, usually, with occasional appearances of 200+ round snail drums . .

 

 

I just don't like vindicating the anti's by using their own bullsh** phrases . . .

[Dirt Diver 0]

Yawn...

 

what could possibly be cooler than an AK 12 gauge....tell me...please

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I'll stick with my S12's thank you very much.

 

WS

[KrisFox 69]

Yawn...

 

what could possibly be cooler than an AK 12 gauge....tell me...please

 

AK12-SU

[Dirt Diver 0]

I mean AK platform, not a specific AK 12. It's just cool.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Dirt Diver

[Paulyski 2,227]

Dude looks Soooo stoned!

 

 

 

[KROSS FA 14]

Looks interesting but as other have mentioned cost may be an issue. Even assuming they are comparable in price / performance, there are really not many products out there that are cooler than a semi-auto 12ga in a an AK platform. It's just a beautiful set up all around.

 

 

Zach

KROSS

[volkov 318]

Well, perhaps showing my age here, but when I see a shotgun (or any firearm) designed for military/defense, I assume it'll have a nice large capacity magazine. One that "holds lots of bullets", ya know?

 

At which point, that's the "intended" or "designed" capacity for the gun.

 

At which point, I'd just call it a "CMMG shotgun magazine" and expect folks to know that it holds "a lot of bullets".

 

Same as saying "AR mag" - you know AR mags hold 20 or 30 rounds, usually, with occasional appearances of 200+ round snail drums . .

 

 

I just don't like vindicating the anti's by using their own bullsh** phrases . . .

 

fair enough.. I guess he could have said "I bet they havn't made any drums or mags for it yet".. That probably would have worked.. so I see your point

 

I have to say though that I feel like being afraid to use a term just because they consider it offensive is in some ways conceding to them.. I'll call a semi automatic an assault rifle with no qualms if it's a military black gun (designed for.. uhh assault!) regardless of what people say about it terminology wise.. I have a right to own one for my protection, and yes I own it for assaulting someone who invades my home attacks my family, it is my rifle for assaulting purposes! Maybe hd rifle would be more accurate.. but I don't care. I'll also call a high cap mag a high cap, and if it stings them, they can go fuck themselves. It's not like appealing to their wording slows the bastards intent.

[veprk 12]

If its like any of the previous 60 years of stoner guns,I'll stick with an ak...Dont wast my time.Gas piston or not,to many other issues

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Who wants to bet it'd MSRP, (bone-stock), for $1500 or more? That's if they even produce it in significant numbers. No thanks. The guy holding it looks so enthusiastic too!

[Nailbomb 10,221]

this is from the makers of the tactical bacon, They'll make it, and it will be under a grand!

 

I'm trying to think positive here...

 

If its affordable, I'll probably buy one. Why not enjoy ammo interchangability with my 2 S-12s? why not expirience another 12 ga platform? Especialy a US made one...

[John_pro2a 3]

Saiga 12 $550.00. I bet the CCMG 12 will be at least $950.00. $400.00 extra for what? I'll stick with the Saiga.

 

Not a great comparison, because the CCMG one comes with a pistol grip, top rail, magwell, etc. Take a stock Saiga12, add on all the typical mods people want (done by a real smith) and you're easily at the 1k mark.

[Reverendfranz 160]

Well, perhaps showing my age here, but when I see a shotgun (or any firearm) designed for military/defense, I assume it'll have a nice large capacity magazine. One that "holds lots of bullets", ya know?

 

At which point, that's the "intended" or "designed" capacity for the gun.

 

At which point, I'd just call it a "CMMG shotgun magazine" and expect folks to know that it holds "a lot of bullets".

 

Same as saying "AR mag" - you know AR mags hold 20 or 30 rounds, usually, with occasional appearances of 200+ round snail drums . .

 

 

I just don't like vindicating the anti's by using their own bullsh** phrases . . .

 

fair enough.. I guess he could have said "I bet they havn't made any drums or mags for it yet".. That probably would have worked.. so I see your point

 

I have to say though that I feel like being afraid to use a term just because they consider it offensive is in some ways conceding to them.. I'll call a semi automatic an assault rifle with no qualms if it's a military black gun (designed for.. uhh assault!) regardless of what people say about it terminology wise.. I have a right to own one for my protection, and yes I own it for assaulting someone who invades my home attacks my family, it is my rifle for assaulting purposes! Maybe hd rifle would be more accurate.. but I don't care. I'll also call a high cap mag a high cap, and if it stings them, they can go fuck themselves. It's not like appealing to their wording slows the bastards intent.

 

Well, im glad you got the difference between a Neutered Mag and a Mag, but im sorry i have to question what you said after. How is you defending your family the same as assaulting someone? how does the colour of the rifle make it more assaultworthy?

 

An assault rifle is defined as a selective fire rifle designed for combat that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. Assault rifles are the standard infantry weapons in most modern armies.

I dont know what you are packing, but i dont have any select fire weapons designed for combat. I have practical all purpose semi automatic rifles designed for civilians to use however they want. I guess you could call it a Semi Automatic Clone of an Assault Rifle, but that seems pretty wordy. A rifle is a rifle, no matter how you dress it up. If you had to differentiate between friendly and angry looking semi auto rifles, you can always call them Evil Black Rifles, and poke fun at the antis, or I call them Sport Utility Rifles, as they look alot like they could go offroad, but really, its just about looks, to sell en mass to americans.

 

 

 

[sudaevpps43 31]

Cmon Nailoth.. What was he going to say? "Oh no they don't have any mags for it yet that can hold more bullets than your typical mag?"

 

It's a high capacity mag.. deal with it.. Just because the anti gunners try to use them to ban guns doesn't mean we should be afraid to use the term.. It's just easier to say than "magazine with lots of bullets"

 

 

....... I'll call a semi automatic an assault rifle with no qualms if it's a military black gun (designed for.. uhh assault!).......I'll also call a high cap mag a high cap......It's not like appealing to their wording slows the bastards intent.

 

RANT ON

 

I'm gonna have to go with Nalioth on this and disagree with that. To me that is a siege mentality, which is not good enough for securing our self-defense rights in the long term. You're right in that it's pretty much impossible to change an anti's mindset, since it's an illogical mindset devoid of even basic common sense (let alone reason) to begin with, and that we will never be able to deter or slow the efforts of individual anti's who are so far gone as to actually believe eliminating self-defense rights is the right thing to do. But I definitely don't think we should be helping the anti's speed up their mindless crusade either, which IMHO is in effect what happens any time terms the anti's made up are used to describe anything firearm related.

 

Let's say the anti's decided to start calling the 2nd amendment the 'arming criminals amendment', you wouldn't be fine with that and start using that name from then on as the standard name for the 2nd amendment would you?

 

Magazines which hold significantly more rounds than a six-shooter have been around since World War I (the snail drums used on Luger pistols for example), and were quite common as soon as World War II (the Browning HP, M1 carbine, and virtually all WWII era submachineguns used double-stack magazines), and yet it wasn't until the mid-1980s that the term 'high capacity magazine' appeared. The mid-1980s was also when (with the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA having been the intermediate steps) the anti's started their big push on banning firearms outright at the federal level, but that must have just been a coincidence, right?

 

Short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, destructive device, sporting purposes, high-capacity magazine, assault weapon, etc., are all terms that didn't exist until those whose goal was to destroy self-defense rights came along. These made-up names were part of the anti's multi-step propaganda strategy that would have made Joseph Goebbels proud. The first step was to make up fake names with inherently negative connotations for firearms and firearms parts. The second step was to keep repeating these fake negative sounding-names in public speeches, in the news, and everywhere else until people at large started using them as well (the whole 'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.' phrase Goebbels coined). The third and final step of course then being to demand the lawmakers ban these firearms and firearms parts with the made-up negative sounding names, since after all only a criminal would want such firearms, because everyone knows that things like short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, assault weapons, and high capacity magazines can only be used for criminal purposes, right?

 

Like Nalioth I'm just a bit old-fashioned in that I just don't care to use the deliberately negative sounding names that the anti's had made up for their propaganda, and I instead prefer to refer to firearms and their parts by their actual/factual type names. A Saiga 12 is a self-loading shotgun with magazines available in capacities of 2, 5, 8, 10, 12, and 20 rounds, an AR-15 is a self-loading rifle whose magazines usually hold 20, 30, or more rounds, and an M-16 is a machinegun (though assault rifle could of course also be used to describe an M-16, since the name 'assault rifle' just means a specific type of machinegun). Calling a Saiga 12 an 'assault shotgun', or an AR-15 an 'assault rifle', and saying they use 'high-capacity magazines', is not just incorrect as far as the word definitions go, it is also IMHO directly boosting the anti's mindless message, whether the person using such names intended to or not. An AR-15 is incapable of fully automatic fire, and so by definition is not a machinegun nor an assault rifle, so why would an AR-15 ever be called an assault rifle or an assault weapon? An AR-15 is a 'self-loading rifle' which is a good 'self-defense arm'.

 

Though I guess I should confess I sometimes make up names myself. For example I call 5-round Mini-14, 10 round Glock 17, and 10 round AR-15 magazines 'under-capacity magazines'. Of course according to the anti's this is the incorrect way to go about naming a firearm part, since such a name is a factual description rather than a deliberately negative and misleading name. So I guess form now on I will instead refer to 5-round Mini-14, 10 round Glock 17, and 10 round AR-15 magazines as 'unsafe child-death enabling magazines that still holds too many cartridges bullets' (can't forget to also use the standard ignorant 'anti-gun' method of saying 'bullets' even when actually referring to cartridges).

 

RANT OFF

 

Anyway back on topic, between the Saiga 12 and the new 12 gauge AR that ATI will start importing soon, I think CMMG is well aware they won't ever be price competitive with shotguns made in Russian and Turkey, where labor costs are just a bit less (okay a lot less) than they are in the USA. My guess is that CMMG will try to pull a Bushmaster, and spend the next couple years redesigning their shotgun in the hope of incorporating some feature the Saiga 12 and ATI's 12 gauge AR don't have (maybe fully ambidexterous controls, or maybe a multi-cartridge capability like being able to swap out a 12 gauge upper for a .410 or 20 gauge upper), and then when they finally get around to bringing it to market it will cost at least $2500, but CMMG will say it's a 'high-end' shotgun (ah more word games) and worth the price.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Frogfoot

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Fully converted S-12 with all the typical bells and whistles: ~$950 give or take

 

Some of these piston AR's coming out are damn near $1500-2000. Chances are, this gun is gonna cost $500-1000 more than a Saiga

 

Yeah no thanks

[JK-47 33]

insufficient data.