crackback 135 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) After my initial reaction to the recent hot topics around here I spent some time actually thinking rationally about matters this weekend and I must say for only having a single point source of intel (aka Princelaw blog) about Monday, things are in full groupthink mode around here and really south of cheese. Ah, the perils of single point intel... the impetus for OIF was based on a single source re: ready-to-go WMD's. Also, regarding anything having to do with 10+ rd magazines and fear based buying has me just finally fed up. But I digress... 1.) Monday. So lets assume for the moment that the news will be about the blocking of importation. What are the facts? A.) Taurus, in a moment of (IMHO) utter lack of foresight has introduced basically an AOW in the form of the 28ga Raging Judge. Without rifling, it doesn't take a legal eagle to realize that 1.) its over .5" in bore. 2.) Has a barrel under 18". 3.) Is imported from Brazil. This firearm, assuming that the princeblog is correct, is almost definitely a target for Monday. B.) RAA/Saiga 12 - This SA firearm is imported with a 5rd mag. Almost half the capacity of the Mossberg 590A1 that has a factory PG. It is also imported with a threaded barrel for chokes. However the 590 is USA made whilst the S12 obviously is not, hence the fretting about the "sporting clause" of the 1968 GCA. However, the next bit of interpretation and facts bear a careful read and my logic is based on past decisions. i. The S12 (IZ-109) is relatively ho-hum in its imported form. This form is upon which importability decisions are made. A PG can be placed on any shotgun or rifle as evidenced in the SKS and M1 carbine (paratrooper kits) markets. However, it has never ever altered the (re)importability of the aforementioned rifles. To say it again, you make the decision based upon its form that it will be in at customs. ii. RAA, wisely never offered the 8rd mag nor the magwell for import. Again numerous other PG shotty's have nearly double the capacity. C.) RAA/S12 - However.... there is another bit of verbiage that comes into consideration here i.e "readily convertible". Remember the PSL recall a few years back as the 3rd axis hole was merely welded up? The logic here as pertains to aspects of the stock S12 given the readily "restorable" status of the IZ -109 to a form that we all know would not be approved on a Form 6 i.e the "Clinton plate" and receivers with all the orginal Russian trigger holes already cut. Therefore a more likely outcome if such a ruling is in the works and based on logic and past precedent would be that Izhmash would have to produce "smooth solid bottom" receivers for their shotguns with no additional holes cut other than for the crappy transfer bar stock trigger for the USA market. They may also have to change or eliminate their barrel threading. These "smooth solid bottom" receivers would add to the cost of a new S12 but would also make the restoration project for the average guy perhaps much more prohibitive. So... in effect, this could be a huge boon in business for the professional restoration folks. D. All talk of DD status reeks of bet wetting panic, IMO. As noted before, decisions are based upon what is imported. Not what is done after importation as then you are getting into hypotheticals. If the latter criteria is used, nothing would be importable, ever. The streetsweeper and USAS 12 cases that people like to site are in a different class. But wait, I forgot about the wood stocked, 5 rd mag'd, no PG, and lightweight USAS that was imported before it was DD'd , oh yeah because there wasn't one. That was how it looked as imported to the day it was DD'd. 2.) Hoarding. So planning to buy your 3rd or maybe 6th S12 to "get it while you can"? If you are doing this as an investor/speculator and plan to sell them later, I cannot begrudge you for taking that risk. However, if you are panic buying to have it for some concocted TEOTWAWKI scenario or "just to have a spare or 3" consider this.... Do you even know how to use an S12 correctly and safely? I know the overwhelming majority of those here do but does your significant other? Family? All this $ on superfluous firearms would be better spent on some of the better training courses out there, range fees/memberships, reloading equipment, donating to a pro-2A organization, investments, gold, etc... Plus you are denying a firearm to a potential new purchaser that would in effect become a part of our family and more importantly a fellow constituent that would want to keep their new S12 or AR15, x39, Glock, etc... and would act to protect their right to do so. 3.) Magazines and the bill submitted out there. This particular rep submits this bill or one like it in Every Session of Congress since 2004. There is no appetite for a new "AW"B so therefore this bill is going nowhere fast. So stop panic buying the damn mags. If you don't believe me, just follow the news of the publicly traded firearms companies. If there was a danger of loss of revenue because of a new law, it would be priced in before a thread was started here. Because when millions to billions of dollars are at stake and information = $ you bet damn well Wall St. has its ears to the rails and inside gov't to get wind of such things in order to buy or sell first. One last thing. Regardless of our petty differences we all have a common bond in the 1st and 2nd Amendments keeping us together. Given the huge influx of pro 2A pols legislatures at all levels, lets combine and direct our efforts to getting the laws changed for the better. IA now a shall issue state, MO now allows suppressors, SBS/SBR's , OH has a state level preemption statute, AZ is no permit CCW, etc... We can make things better if we stop the bitching , the gloom and doom, or the I't wont work here attitude and work together to change things. Edited January 24, 2011 by 690gr 10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Good write up, and very well laid out arguments. I have a feeling you are correct. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjrivero 50 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) http://michaelbane.b...n-shotguns.html Looks like they've already made the moves against the Taurus, as well as the mare's leg. The issue at hand on Monday will directly effect the importation of Saiga shotguns as we know it. You can rationalize all you want, but the saiga is clearly evil in the eyes of the ATF. Take into consideration that Obama appointed a clearly anti gun director to the ATF, who would be all to happy to perform for his puppet-master. I would venture to guess that they will blanket prohibit box magazine fed shotguns. They will require Saiga to have fixed magazines for use in the US. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the ATF side stepping this issue. Edited January 24, 2011 by rjrivero Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Isn't this what I have said the whole time yet not as eloquently. In other words I agree. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yawn. I am so not worried about tomorrow. I'll jump off that bridge when I come to it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yeah really.... Oh but the sky is falling the sky is falling....geez... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 blah blah blah A.) Taurus, in a moment of (IMHO) utter lack of foresight has introduced basically an AOW in the form of the 28ga Raging Judge. Without rifling, it doesn't take a legal eagle to realize that 1.) its over .5" in bore. 2.) Has a barrel under 18". 3.) Is imported from Brazil. This firearm, assuming that the princeblog is correct, is almost definitely a target for Monday. blah blah blah I think you are right with the Taurus ban, but who is to say that they wont go the same way with our beloved S12.... Its better to buy one now and be safe.... or maybe its better to buy one right after the panic when people are unloading their units in disappointment... Who is to say, all I know is I need a few S12s anyway for sporting purposes here in Idaho and I might as well drop the coin... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 BATF only cares about one thing IMHO, that the S12 will accept a drum. That and that alone makes it a target in my eyes for the gun grabbers... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joebanda1213 59 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thank you for making me feel better... Even my coworkers have been asking me whats wrong. I sold my Saiga 12 in November because I hit hard times. I had the intention of picking up a shorter barreled one as soon as I have the money. Then I read the forum. I cant live without a Saiga 12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) There will be Saigas. I'm just saying, in order to pass on a form 6 they will just have to no longer have the holes pre-cut on the bottom of the receiver anymore. i think Izhmash/RAA makes enough money on this to comply and change their manufacturing process to keep the USA market open. BATF only cares about one thing IMHO, that the S12 will accept a drum. That and that alone makes it a target in my eyes for the gun grabbers... Yes but a GSG has a 110 rd drum, and it is imported as well. Edited January 23, 2011 by 690gr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scarbrough68289 76 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Cool to see Taurus doing a pistol caliber carbine. I also love the Mare's leg. Not practical but still awesome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chevyman097 2,579 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I can think of more than just the saiga that has large capacity magazines and pistol grips.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 If the stock S12 was domestically produced would we be having this discussion? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) updated: http://blog.princela...ssued-on-monday it *IS* the saiga if this chap is correct. Quoted: "I have since learned that the new ruling is going to be akin to the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban, in that, shotguns with bayonet lugs, large capacity magazines…etc or commonly referred to as "evil parts," will no longer be importable as they have "no sporting purpose." It would seem that the Saiga would fit that category since it has available large capacity magazines, but I am unsure what other currently imported shotguns would fit this bill. " It IS NOT imported this way. ETA: I believe the news will be the Turkish gun that looks like an AR is now approved, which it was, last Thursday and that either one or both of the Taurus's will be banned. Edited January 23, 2011 by Stansplace Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Ok, so the .45/.410 Circuit Judge is technically a rifle due to its rifling. So, what do you call a slug gun with rifling? It ain't the cartridge that makes the rifle, it's them spinny things, ya stupidz in the ATF. There ought to be a law, if you don't KNOW about something, you don't get to have an OPINION on it. Thus, the entire batfuckE will be disbanded. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 If one just reads the text of what Prince said the ATF official said, it doesn't sound nearly as ominous as if you read Prince's spin on it. Then again, Prince is a gun lawyer right? Go to the barber, he's gonna tell you that you need a haircut... Right? But I guess we'll see come tomorrow. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
454496 71 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Many people think doom and gloom because we do not trust the hired help. Maybe it is because of the 14 trillion debt (bankruptcy) that the USA is in. Many years ago my mom said that We The People knew we were the government of the USA. But now many people think the hired help is the government of the USA. Its almost Monday Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Heath_h49008 442 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'm a little more disturbed that the big business members here seem to be so quiet on the subject. A: They don't know anything. B: They do and are cashing in on the panic. C: ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjrivero 50 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 ETA: I believe the news will be the Turkish gun that looks like an AR is now approved, which it was, last Thursday and that either one or both of the Taurus's will be banned. I certainly hope you're right on this matter. I can't see how the ATF would "ban" a gun that has been legally imported for years now. I wouldn't put it past them, but I don't think they have the funding to make something like a mass Saiga turn in feesable. I will be watching very closely tomorrow to see what the hub-bub is all about! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I think we may see the whole pistol grip / box magazine shotgun restriction lifted. Norinco has a Rem 870 and a 1100 knockoff, pistol gripped , folding stocked, box mag fed series of guns ready to import.........and bama was kissin chinese ass last week........this just might knock hell out of the S-12 market.............. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 If you are right, like i suggested before and this is good news.... i for one will be clicking my heels 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 i hope you are right also tom cole (sorry beefcakeb0, meant to give a positve. can someone fix my error.) my heels will be clicking too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) Now that is why you do NOT panic buy, hoard, or bed-wet about anything! I rest my case. Edited January 24, 2011 by 690gr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tusken Raider 6 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 OK so what is the verdict? S12's go bye bye? If so I will join the ranks as an S20 owner instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fumes 84 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Where's the facepalm smiley? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 OK so what is the verdict? S12's go bye bye? If so I will join the ranks as an S20 owner instead. ALL Saiga weapon platforms will NO LONGER BE IMPORTABLE, via a ruling by the ATF!!! Only the ones NOW IN THIS COUNTRY will be available... If you have one, you are LUCKY!!! If you dont... buy now... or forever wish your did!!! There will be NO MORE SAIGAS EVER!!!!!! I *KNOW* this is TRUE because I heard it from a VERY reputable source... my brother... he told me... well, my brothers ex cousin in law, lived next door to the guy who's pool cleaner knew this chick who dated a guy that worked on the ATF agents car... told HIM... So I KNOW its TRUE!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacSat 90 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 LMAo That is just funny. I dont care who you are.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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