Keltec KSG vs Saiga 12 on the nutnfancy project

[grendelz 61]

I suscribe to nutnfancy's youtube videos and this just got my attention

http://youtu.be/p1fvjncwX8I

Edited April 29, 2011 by grendelz

[schultze13 354]

It did me too. My local dealer has 4 on the wait list from his distrubitor and #1 is mine I already put $500 on it. NOTHING will replace my S-12 but I think it will make a nice "truck" gun.

[L5K 162]

I really am loving the look of the KSG.

[datrowl 111]

I REALLY think thats gonna be my go to home defense gun at some point. Pump argueably more reliable than an auto in the dark of night with the adrinalin pumping. Short enough to be useful in the house... and abality to switch almost instantly from non lethal rounds to lethal rounds... its a good house gun, not good for much else IMHO, but a good house gun

[rhettdean3@charter.net 5]

Just about any firearm can be modified/ improved to be as reliable as the sun setting in the west. I would rather have a gun that is ready to go with as little input from me as possible. If you are awakened in the middle of the night, the only action I want to have to do is pull the trigger. Besides, this is Kel-tec's first attempt at a shotgun, I would not put my faith in anything that has not been vetted in the market for at least a year. If it was developed by a company like Remington or Mossberg (that know shotguns inside and out), I might have a little more trust in it. I'm not saying Kel-tec sucks, I would just be hesitant to put my life on the line with something so new and unproven.

 

 

[avnate 335]

Just about any firearm can be modified/ improved to be as reliable as the sun setting in the west. I would rather have a gun that is ready to go with as little input from me as possible. If you are awakened in the middle of the night, the only action I want to have to do is pull the trigger. Besides, this is Kel-tec's first attempt at a shotgun, I would not put my faith in anything that has not been vetted in the market for at least a year. If it was developed by a company like Remington or Mossberg (that know shotguns inside and out), I might have a little more trust in it. I'm not saying Kel-tec sucks, I would just be hesitant to put my life on the line with something so new and unproven.

 

 

Valid points... I own Kel-Tec items and they are quality for what you pay. That being said sometimes it's best to wait till all the bugs are worked out. Still you have to admire the innovation of their designs.

[topmaul 42]

The Saiga is king of the hill and these other multi tube guns are a flash in the pan nothing more than a fad that will fade fairly quickly.

[hobbyshooter 59]

I've watched quite a few people handle a pump after putting in the majority of their trigger experience with semi-auto rifles. It usually goes like this:

load, safety, acquire target, BOOM, fail to fire, look at the gun, rack the pump, reacquire target. and from there it smooths out a bit.

 

Witnessing and recognizing that is what made me want as similar a platform across everything I own. I traded off pistols so that now everything I own is SA/DA except the P3AT (and if I haven't shot it in a while I still fail to fully reset the trigger after the first shot!). All of my rifles are AK platform or similar enough.

 

So IMO it doesn't make sense for a saiga owner to design their defense strategy around having a saiga range beater toy (that ends up being the majority of your practice building muscle memory), and a pump anything that never leaves the bedroom. When it comes time for the weapon to be 100% reliable: You are still the one that has to make it work. If your practiced platform is a semi-auto, when the gun does nothing on the second pull of the trigger your eyes will go down to the gun to see what "happened" before you remember you have to pump. Then you will have to reacquire the target after you've figured it out.

[slostang 80]

LOL @ 34:52

[glennhmd 23]

i wouldn't be as fast to dismiss the keltec. i really appreciate the engineering details they have put on it. its more handy than the S12 in very tight engagements. it just needs to prove itself in the "heat of battle" and the test of time, it being the new kid on the block. once its proven itself reliable and more importantly, affordable, i'd probably own one too.

[jimdigriz 580]

I've watched quite a few people handle a pump after putting in the majority of their trigger experience with semi-auto rifles. It usually goes like this:

load, safety, acquire target, BOOM, fail to fire, look at the gun, rack the pump, reacquire target. and from there it smooths out a bit.

 

Witnessing and recognizing that is what made me want as similar a platform across everything I own. I traded off pistols so that now everything I own is SA/DA except the P3AT (and if I haven't shot it in a while I still fail to fully reset the trigger after the first shot!). All of my rifles are AK platform or similar enough.

 

So IMO it doesn't make sense for a saiga owner to design their defense strategy around having a saiga range beater toy (that ends up being the majority of your practice building muscle memory), and a pump anything that never leaves the bedroom. When it comes time for the weapon to be 100% reliable: You are still the one that has to make it work. If your practiced platform is a semi-auto, when the gun does nothing on the second pull of the trigger your eyes will go down to the gun to see what "happened" before you remember you have to pump. Then you will have to reacquire the target after you've figured it out.

 

Great points. There were things that happened in that video with the KSG that would have gotten someone killed in a firefight. A lot of it had to do with the confusion with having to switch tubes when one (quickly) ran dry. Too few rounds of continuous firing to be a viable home defense weapon. Will stick with my SGL 31 and 46 rounds of reliable, non-confusing, semi-auto goodness.

[hobbyshooter 59]

It would make sense to have that tube select switch automatically flip when the follower of the empty tube nudged it. More sense than ammo tube sight windows.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I've watched quite a few people handle a pump after putting in the majority of their trigger experience with semi-auto rifles. It usually goes like this:

load, safety, acquire target, BOOM, fail to fire, look at the gun, rack the pump, reacquire target. and from there it smooths out a bit.

 

Witnessing and recognizing that is what made me want as similar a platform across everything I own. I traded off pistols so that now everything I own is SA/DA except the P3AT (and if I haven't shot it in a while I still fail to fully reset the trigger after the first shot!). All of my rifles are AK platform or similar enough.

 

So IMO it doesn't make sense for a saiga owner to design their defense strategy around having a saiga range beater toy (that ends up being the majority of your practice building muscle memory), and a pump anything that never leaves the bedroom. When it comes time for the weapon to be 100% reliable: You are still the one that has to make it work. If your practiced platform is a semi-auto, when the gun does nothing on the second pull of the trigger your eyes will go down to the gun to see what "happened" before you remember you have to pump. Then you will have to reacquire the target after you've figured it out.

 

I agree, I grew up running pumps my entire life, and when I bought my Mossberg 500 I was extremely comfortable running it. Now that I've been training with the S-12 I pulled the Mossy 500 out the other day and found that I'm quite a bit slower with it both with firing and tactical loading drills.

 

It has been relegated to closet duty. It will still get used but every time I pick it up I find myself concentrating on the fact that it's a pump gun and I've got to run it if I want it to work...

 

I'm much more comfortable with a semi but I used to be the other way.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I prefer a pump for HD simply because of the fact that it would look a lot less "evil" if it were ever shown off to a jury by some douchebag DA.

 

If it's TEOTWAWKI, obviously shit like that won't matter, (it shouldn't now ), and the pump will go in the back of the truck while I carry the S-12 for serious use.

 

All that said, I am leery of anything Kel-Tec. Their innovations and designs are really cool, but the build quality is often suspect. I am potentially interested though.. I'll have to research the KSG some more.

 

For now, the good ol Winchester Defender 1300, (smoothest, fastest pump action I've ever used), remains my HD weapon of choice.

 

ymmv.

Edited April 30, 2011 by post-apocalyptic

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Leery? Dude I dig EVERYTHING Kel-Tec. Hey man, cool designs, a forward thinking company, if it's broke they fix it. Whats not to like?

[CFOofEVIL 8]

For some odd reason, I've heard that the mag tubes don't auto switch for legal reasons. Not sure why but I've heard it mentioned a few times.

 

I love my S12. Just like any gun it requires its own set of muscle memory - the Ksg is going to need its own set too. There are some people who just hate on anything new that they don't like. Earlier I had this guy tell me that the S12 "sucks because it isn't a real AK like the AK-97". Yup, that is a real quote. Lmao.

[rhettdean3@charter.net 5]

The only thing that I see that makes this shotgun different than any other American-made shotgun is the higher capacity. You can put extension tubes on other shotguns, but they still do not hold as much as the Kel-tec. But, when it comes to capacity, the Saiga still wins. What about reloading both of those tubes? Nowhere near as fast as swapping magazines/ drums in a Saiga. I have to agree with some of you that it is an innovative design, and it is things like this that motivate other new designs to compete. That is something that I believe is needed from American shotgun manufacturers. Why should we have to limit ourselves to a foreign made shotgun that is restricted by ridiculous regulations? American shotgun manufacturers have pretty much been sitting on their duffs for the past century. IMHO, there hasn't been any significant technological achievements in shotgun design since the Saiga. Other than that .410 AR (which is foreign made), there isn't any other shotgun that has a detachable magazine. Kudos to Kel-tec for thinking outside of the box.

[Fapp3R 4]

KSG kool gun, good for Home Defense maybe some shooting with a small pull, but the SAIGA 12 is "King of the Hill"

[MT Predator 2,294]

It did me too. My local dealer has 4 on the wait list from his distrubitor and #1 is mine I already put $500 on it. NOTHING will replace my S-12 but I think it will make a nice "truck" gun.

I think it would make a good truck gun as well. How much are you shelling out for your KSG? Looks like those guys need to do some more drills with the Keltech. Every time they ran a tube dry, it stumped them for a second.

[DogMan 2,343]

I prefer a pump for HD simply because of the fact that it would look a lot less "evil" if it were ever shown off to a jury by some douchebag DA.

 

If it's TEOTWAWKI, obviously shit like that won't matter, (it shouldn't now ), and the pump will go in the back of the truck while I carry the S-12 for serious use.

 

 

ymmv.

Once again I'm completely and utterly mystified by this reasoning. In order for you to be in front of that jury at all you had to have been in a life or death situation and are probably lucky to be alive. It's hard to believe you would give up the weapon that you indicate you would prefer to get you out of that situation based on what some jurors MAY think about it's looks. I don't get it. If this were a serious concern I would think we should all be painting our guns pink and baby blue.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The S12 is unchallenged when it comes to the ability to sling large quantities of lead quickly. I am referring to production weapons that are fairly common. The KSG is a neat little item, but it's cons outweigh the pros for when compared to the S12. Pump is 19th century tech and I'll leave that nostalgic stuff to you other guys. Enjoy

[spaniel 7]

Too few rounds of continuous firing to be a viable home defense weapon. Will stick with my SGL 31 and 46 rounds of reliable, non-confusing, semi-auto goodness.

 

LOL. You need to lay off the movies a bit. Give one example of a home defense situation where the BGs stuck around for 14 rounds to be discharged.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Holy shit that guy makes LOOOOOOOOOOONG videos......and that 45 minute video in the link is only 1 of 4 parts??

[jimdigriz 580]

Too few rounds of continuous firing to be a viable home defense weapon. Will stick with my SGL 31 and 46 rounds of reliable, non-confusing, semi-auto goodness.

 

LOL. You need to lay off the movies a bit. Give one example of a home defense situation where the BGs stuck around for 14 rounds to be discharged.

 

There's only one that I can think of, but I can't find the link at the moment. But there have been MANY home invasions with 4, 6, or more guys. The round count is rarely mentioned in those stories, but I intend to never have to worry about reloading or be overly concerned about conserving ammo. Anyhow, if it has happened once, it can happen to YOU.

 

However, by mentioning 14 rounds, you missed part of the point. The guys in the video were thrown off and slowed down several times when they realized they needed to switch tubes. So when I talk about "too few rounds of continuous firing", I mean 7, not 14.

 

I read a while back that in 90% of cases, ANY level of serious resistance is enough to send the bad guys packing. It's that 10% when you're dealing with seriously whacked individuals, that I don't want to leave uncovered.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[spaniel 7]

 

 

There's only one that I can think of, but I can't find the link at the moment. But there have been MANY home invasions with 4, 6, or more guys. The round count is rarely mentioned in those stories, but I intend to never have to worry about reloading or be overly concerned about conserving ammo. Anyhow, if it has happened once, it can happen to YOU.

 

However, by mentioning 14 rounds, you missed part of the point. The guys in the video were thrown off and slowed down several times when they realized they needed to switch tubes. So when I talk about "too few rounds of continuous firing", I mean 7, not 14.

 

I read a while back that in 90% of cases, ANY level of serious resistance is enough to send the bad guys packing. It's that 10% when you're dealing with seriously whacked individuals, that I don't want to leave uncovered.

 

 

Well, good luck manuevering against 5-6 BGs with the weight of an MD20 holding you down.

 

You do realize that you are saying that everyone using a revolver or typical shotgun with 5-6 rds is using inadequate weapons.

 

One can be thrown off just as easily but trying to insert a new mag as flipping the switch on the KSG. That can happen with any weapon. It is all about familiarity with your weapon regardless of what it is.

 

 

[fauxknight 30]

You do realize that you are saying that everyone using a revolver or typical shotgun with 5-6 rds is using inadequate weapons.

 

Exactly, it might have looked awkward everytime they ran one tube dry with the KSG, but they were already 7-8 rounds deep at that point which is as good as any other pump.

[jimdigriz 580]

Well, good luck manuevering against 5-6 BGs with the weight of an MD20 holding you down.

My post above mentions my SGL 31 and 46 rounds, not an S12 with a drum. The 45 round AK 74 mag only weighs about a pound and a half.

 

 

You do realize that you are saying that everyone using a revolver or typical shotgun with 5-6 rds is using inadequate weapons.

Their weapon is adequate for over 90% of possible situations. I try to get as close to 100% as I can.

 

 

One can be thrown off just as easily but trying to insert a new mag as flipping the switch on the KSG. That can happen with any weapon.

Give one example of a home defense situation where the BGs stuck around for 46 rounds to be discharged.

;-)

Edited April 30, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[scalilou 2]

Im sure a lot of R&D went into engineering this gun, it wasnt just drawn on a napkin then thrown together in a garage workshop. I dont endorse Kel-tec in any way, but I will definately be getting one of these for the safe at home.

 

This gun was made for law enforcement and military use so naturally its well adapted to HD. Its a close quarters combat shotgun....why would any one be leery of this?

 

I would definately use it for HD, but until I play around with it at the range I dont really agree with kel-tec's "new law enforcement and military standard" claim..that means replacing the 870 and mossberg 590's....those are some battle proven shotguns

[topmaul 42]

Im sure a lot of R&D went into engineering this gun, it wasnt just drawn on a napkin then thrown together in a garage workshop. I dont endorse Kel-tec in any way, but I will definately be getting one of these for the safe at home.

 

This gun was made for law enforcement and military use so naturally its well adapted to HD. Its a close quarters combat shotgun....why would any one be leery of this?

 

I would definately use it for HD, but until I play around with it at the range I dont really agree with kel-tec's "new law enforcement and military standard" claim..that means replacing the 870 and mossberg 590's....those are some battle proven shotguns

 

I am all for replacing the 870 and 590 they are both as up to date as flintlocks. At first I was not so sure about this Kel-Tec weapon but looking at it a little closer it fits my Home D Stratagy pretty well. My HD weapon now is a pistol caliber carbin. I think this weapon would also fit that bill.

 

As far as a combat shotgun goes the Saiga 12 is King of that Hill, and every knows it.

[peterabbits 1]

i'll share the viewpoint of a Californian on this gun because all of us here in Komifornia are anxiously awaiting it's release. i LOVE my S12. but here in CA it has 2 major drawbacks - it has to have a magazine lock on it, and it cannot have a mag larger than 10 rounds. this means that in a SHTF situation, when the mag is empty i'm dropping it and grabbing the next gun - no time to grab a freaking tool to release the mag and install a new one.

 

with the KMG, because you have to flip a switch manually to switch from one tube to another, technically you are below the 10 round count per "ammo feeding device" and yet the total round count is as high as 15 (7+7+1). that's 4 more than i can have in my S12, and it's faster to reload if i do (heaven forbid!) go through that amount of rounds. plus it's size is attractive and the design is pretty cool.