Saiga-12 , I'll Pass

[Mike34 0]

Well after thinking about it more and reading about all the problems here, I've decided it just isn't worth it -TO ME- to spend a extra $400-$500 to "FIX"(convert back to the way it was originally built,gas port problems,grind and polish to make the bolt work as it should from the factory,etc. etc.) a NEW gun that is already overpriced. Not to mention taking a chance on getting one with a weak carrier or one where the importer molest them to make them "work" to avoid warranty issues and no replacement parts available. If they were sold as they are now but called "KITS" and priced around $30 then MAYBE it would be worth it. I would still be taking a chance on getting one with weak parts and no replacements available. For me.....I'll pass.

It may be worth it to you folks and that is all that really matters isn't it ?

I would like to thank everyone here for the great forum and sharing their knowledge and helping me decide.

 

I guess I was hoping the Saiga would be built like my old Colt AR-15. I paid $275 for it brand new,Have shot well over 50,000 rounds with not a single FTF or FTE.....EVER. It still works as good as the day I bought it.The ONLY mod to it has been to add a scope.

I guess the imports don't believe in quality or quality control. As long as people keep buying them like that then they will see no need to improve.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Mike34

[mobilecommand 0]

Why did you even post this lol..

 

I will say i did have some of your reservations before i even bought and shot my first saiga but i can tell you everything changed

 

i own 3 of them now and i have had 0 issues. I had 3 gas ports, no need to open ports etc, no ftf, fte, and i cycle the low brass crap all day long and i dont have a polished bolt.

 

I also did not care about having to convert it as i was able the choose the options that i wanted at time of conversation and i am good with that.

 

Sure the gun as a tad over priced but what is not overpriced in today's economy. "ps go try to buy that colt for 275 and let me know how that goes"

 

My overpriced gun that has been converted brings more joy to the people who shoot it then my multiple ARS that range from as cheap as $1200 and run as high as $2500

Edited November 10, 2011 by mobilecommand

[CFOofEVIL 8]

No worries, the gun isn't for everyone. Glad you were able to glean the knowledge you needed to make an educated decision on buying/not buying from info here - the guys here know the gun better than any other place on the 'net.

 

One thing I'd like to note though: You'll generally only find forum posts about folks having problems with their S12's on here. Folks these days seem to only tend to seek out more in depth information on a product when they start to have issues with it. Doesn't really mean that there are a larger amount of folks that experience problems with the gun, but rather that the folks that have had very little or no issues with the gun haven't posted here saying "Hey this thing runs great!". I personally love mine and feel that it provides a drastically different type of capability as compared to traditional tube fed shotguns - it does come with its own set of drawbacks however, but I feel that most of them are simply training issues. Perhaps in the future should you come across someone at your local range with one, see if they'll let you take a few shots on it to get a feel for it.

 

That said, yeah, the Vodka fueled QC can get a bit ridiculous at times, but sometimes you just need to take the good with the bad. I was lucky and only needed to perform the "D" modification to the gas block and it's ran perfectly since then (early '09) on a diet of tons of low brass. The only occasional (and I mean occasional) issues I will see are some rounds hanging up on the barrel hood - I've only really seen this happen with low brass el cheapo deluxe rounds, and while I don't think it contributes terribly much to the issue, I'm curious if the the softer hulls of the cheapo rounds have something to do with it. Never happens to me with High Brass (Buck, Slugs, etc). Other than that, I have no issues other than keeping it fed, hah.

 

[presto_z 125]

i convert my saigas for under 40 bucks.. centerfiresystems fcg $4.99, akpartskit $10 US made buttstock. re use the trigger guard, disconnector spring and hammer, $12MD arms molot grip, and $7 tapco pistol grip nut and bolt.

[sickness 89]

Well after thinking about it more and reading about all the problems here, I've decided it just isn't worth it -TO ME- to spend a extra $400-$500 to "FIX"(convert back to the way it was originally built,gas port problems,grind and polish to make the bolt work as it should from the factory,etc. etc.) a NEW gun that is already overpriced.

 

Hey, whatever.

 

I look at it a different way. I knew I wanted a semi-auto combat shotgun. In that world, the top contenders are all $1k+. The S12 is the cheap route, even at today's prices.

 

So, I reasoned this way:

 

I could drop $1600 on a Benelli and get a good shotgun that will run, period. Or I could take a gamble on an S12 for $450. If the S12 had issues (which it didn't) I would have just sent it out to Tromix, Red Jacket, or some other builder to get it straightened out. At that point, I'd be into the S12 for just as much money as the Benelli - and I'd end up with a better gun.

 

No way to lose there.

 

Now, if you're just looking for a fun gun to horse around with.. sure.. a converted up S12 might be a bit pricey.

 

But if you know you're in the market for a never-say-die combat shotty? S12 all the way, even at twice the price.

 

There is NOTHING else out there that compares.

[Alpha Kilo 42]

I just wish these POS Saigas would start showing up used and cheap cause they don't work, I'll buy them all!

[ewoketeer 35]

I just wish these POS Saigas would start showing up used and cheap cause they don't work, I'll buy them all!

+1. If he's going to pass, pass it this way (Darn, I don't had the $$ right now. Maybe he'll pass it this way anyway )

Edited November 11, 2011 by EWOKETEER

[Gunfixr 76]

Well, as said this gun isn't for everyone. I have a friend who bought one and had it converted, only to sell it to keep his Mossberg 500. He just wasn't enamored with it.

No big deal.

Really, everywhere and with everything, you will only hear the complaints, not the praises. Sure, there are some praises, but it'll be 99% complaints. It's just like at work, your boss only complains, he doesn't say anything about what you do right (unless you're real lucky).

 

Also, in Russia, the weapons culture isn't quite the same as here. They don't have guns as "toys", with "cheap, weak loads" to "play" with. The gun was designed as a law enforcement and battle weapon, fire full powered ammunition. We are "redesigning" the gun to do something it wasn't originally designed to do, and expecting it to work flawlessly.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

How much money were you making at the time you bought the Colt AR for $275?

 

I was making $3.00 an hour.......about 3 weeks salary to pay for that. The gun today at $1,300 is much more affordable to me than it was when they were $275.

 

Tony

[HappYBallZ 31]

Don't get me wrong they are overpriced right now, but once its back to ~$450-500 it's not a bad buy at all. You can convert it yourself pretty easily. And where are those $275 colt AR-15 you talking about?

Edited November 10, 2011 by HappYBallZ

[Castalia 19]

Buy one and shoot it as it came. Use 5 round "mags" and enjoy or use it as a tool for home defense or hunting. The majority convert because it's more like an AK. A lot, myself included did not nove the FCG forward and shoot it with legal magazines for the weapon. You only convert to use large capacity magazines. I have on occasion borrowed a 20 round mag and had fun emptying the mag. Great to know the weapon will work. Enjoy the weapon for what it is. JMHO Castalia

Edited November 11, 2011 by Castalia

[Sergii 142]

Saiga - weapons for real men, strong heart.

[Lord Ak-47 49]

Most people who modify there Saiga 12s are getting them to work beyond what the manufacturer designed them for. Even a stock version S12 is an incredible firearm.

You can convert for under 200, most people just like to really go all out on them because they are really like nothing else.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

It is very rare to find a S12 that does not work with the rounds it was designed for. It is not for everyone.......but it is for ME!! No other shotgun compares. Shoot one and you will understand.

[vulcan16 971]

Well after thinking about it more and reading about all the problems here, I've decided it just isn't worth it -TO ME- to spend a extra $400-$500 to "FIX"(convert back to the way it was originally built,gas port problems,grind and polish to make the bolt work as it should from the factory,etc. etc.) a NEW gun that is already overpriced. Not to mention taking a chance on getting one with a weak carrier or one where the importer molest them to make them "work" to avoid warranty issues and no replacement parts available. If they were sold as they are now but called "KITS" and priced around $30 then MAYBE it would be worth it. I would still be taking a chance on getting one with weak parts and no replacements available. For me.....I'll pass.

It may be worth it to you folks and that is all that really matters isn't it ?

I would like to thank everyone here for the great forum and sharing their knowledge and helping me decide.

 

I guess I was hoping the Saiga would be built like my old Colt AR-15. I paid $275 for it brand new,Have shot well over 50,000 rounds with not a single FTF or FTE.....EVER. It still works as good as the day I bought it.The ONLY mod to it has been to add a scope.

I guess the imports don't believe in quality or quality control. As long as people keep buying them like that then they will see no need to improve.

You come to a Saiga forum, and then you bash the weapon.

Nice 2nd post

[Goose 95]

How many crimes are reported each year? Compare that to the number of good deeds reported each year. People writing and asking about FTE's and FTF's are usually seeking answers because of the wealth of knowledge available on this site, it isn't merely a review board. If it were you'd have trouble finding the the threads with info about fixing those stoppages because of all the people who are very pleased with their gun.

 

As mentioned before these problems are caused by us wanting to get the gun to cycle with loads not intended to be put through it. No big deal, it's to be expected. Our AR's would have problems too, if we tried to cycle under powered rounds through them with out tinkering or adjusting. I personally enjoy the challenge of making my Saiga function with what I want to use with it, but I also intend on becoming a gunsmith sometime very soon. Granted that converting a Saiga is basically a color by number project these days, it was still much more satisfying that buying a gun and just putting a scope on it. And now I have a pistol grip, semi auto shot gun with high capacity mags that I can use for home defense, range toy, skeet shooting or SHTF buggin out, runnin and gunnin. Maybe 3 gun later if I get some free time

 

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong, it's also mentioned above that the S12 isn't for everyone, that's true for any and every gun. I just want to make sure that every side of the equation is weighed evenly before someone makes a decision and gets a gun they don't enjoy to the fullest.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Goose

[bearpower 2]

I just wish these POS Saigas would start showing up used and cheap cause they don't work, I'll buy them all!

Amen

Edited November 10, 2011 by bearpower

[haugpatr 972]

Well after thinking about it more and reading about all the problems here, I've decided it just isn't worth it -TO ME- to spend a extra $400-$500 to "FIX"(convert back to the way it was originally built,gas port problems,grind and polish to make the bolt work as it should from the factory,etc. etc.) a NEW gun that is already overpriced. Not to mention taking a chance on getting one with a weak carrier or one where the importer molest them to make them "work" to avoid warranty issues and no replacement parts available. If they were sold as they are now but called "KITS" and priced around $30 then MAYBE it would be worth it. I would still be taking a chance on getting one with weak parts and no replacements available. For me.....I'll pass.

It may be worth it to you folks and that is all that really matters isn't it ?

I would like to thank everyone here for the great forum and sharing their knowledge and helping me decide.

 

I guess I was hoping the Saiga would be built like my old Colt AR-15. I paid $275 for it brand new,Have shot well over 50,000 rounds with not a single FTF or FTE.....EVER. It still works as good as the day I bought it.The ONLY mod to it has been to add a scope.

I guess the imports don't believe in quality or quality control. As long as people keep buying them like that then they will see no need to improve.

 

Best way to sum up this thread is, sorry you are so misinformed, your loss

[Mike34 0]

Well after thinking about it more and reading about all the problems here, I've decided it just isn't worth it -TO ME- to spend a extra $400-$500 to "FIX"(convert back to the way it was originally built,gas port problems,grind and polish to make the bolt work as it should from the factory,etc. etc.) a NEW gun that is already overpriced. Not to mention taking a chance on getting one with a weak carrier or one where the importer molest them to make them "work" to avoid warranty issues and no replacement parts available. If they were sold as they are now but called "KITS" and priced around $30 then MAYBE it would be worth it. I would still be taking a chance on getting one with weak parts and no replacements available. For me.....I'll pass.

It may be worth it to you folks and that is all that really matters isn't it ?

I would like to thank everyone here for the great forum and sharing their knowledge and helping me decide.

 

I guess I was hoping the Saiga would be built like my old Colt AR-15. I paid $275 for it brand new,Have shot well over 50,000 rounds with not a single FTF or FTE.....EVER. It still works as good as the day I bought it.The ONLY mod to it has been to add a scope.

I guess the imports don't believe in quality or quality control. As long as people keep buying them like that then they will see no need to improve.

You come to a Saiga forum, and then you bash the weapon.

Nice 2nd post

No "Bashing" at all. Just repeating what is posted here on the forum. Maybe you haven't read about the problems I listed? I would BET that since you have made over 600 post here that you have read about them. Repeating what has been posted is NOT Bashing. Man I TRULY didn't mean to step on any toes here. I was just trying to say Thank You for providing a wealth of good information on the S-12. I haven't ruled out the S-12 100% as I would love to see the build quality and reliability go up and price go down. That would not only make it better for me but better for everyone.

I wish there was a quality made semi with mag available that was priced for the average guy. Maybe the rules will change soon and they won't have to screw up a S-12 just so they can import it. If that happens, maybe they can use that time and labor toward making a better weapon. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a new S-12 and not have to take it apart to check for messed up parts on it?

Again, As long as the current S-12 makes you happy then that is all that matters. Enjoy!!

I'll leave you folks alone. I truly wish you folks the best of times with your s-12's.

P.S. I only came back to this forum because I was searching for info on the 1919 and saw a few post about it here. So far what I've read, It don't look all that great either.

[theturtlepond 31]

I wish there was a quality made semi with mag available that was priced for the average guy.

Your choices are basically the Valtro PM5, Saiga 12, MKA 1919, USAS 12, Streetsweeper, AA-12 and some Chinese norinco pump action. If the Saiga 12 is not what you are looking for then I suggest you change your criteria.

Edited November 12, 2011 by theturtlepond

[dowork1021 64]

Buy one and shoot it as it came. Use 5 round clips and enjoy or use it as a tool for home defense or hunting. The majority convert because it's more like an AK. A lot, myself included did not nove the FCG forward and shoot it with legal magazines for the weapon. You only convert to use large capacity magazines. I have on occasion borrowed a 20 round mag and had fun emptying the mag. Great to know the weapon will work. Enjoy the weapon for what it is. JMHO Castalia

OMG!!! you said clips!.......lol I had to say it.

[PROBIKE101 0]

damn.....................

[TARE 47]

To help put things in perspective for you; have you any idea how many people have given harsh criticism to your AR? and Yet you have not had a single problem. Similarly you'll see that with Saiga 12's.

 

Myself, I'm a statistic and had a problem gun (with light loads); covered port, undersized and given up on by the guy I bought it from. Honestly I would be less knowledgeable had I gotten a prime example of a quality shotgun, but I have had my fair share of hands on learning experiences and it has almost all served to educate me and most of the knowledge I gained was tapped later by others with questions relating to Saiga 12s and non-russian AKMs the like. It really allowed me to familiarize myself with the platform, and its one of my favorite guns, it is my most envied gun and its also my least understood gun (by others) really it can be summed up by the phrase;

 

"you just wouldn't understand"

[Roadhawg 10]

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a new S-12 and not have to take it apart to check for messed up parts on it?

Again, As long as the current S-12 makes you happy then that is all that matters. Enjoy!!

 

I field strip all my new guys before I take them to the range.

I recently purchased a S12 that was manufactured in 2011 and it works flawlessly.

My only complaint is it is so fun to shoot, I am feeding it ammo like a fat girl at an all you can eat buffet.

[EEEKROAR 7]

Well after thinking about it more and reading about all the problems here, I've decided it just isn't worth it -TO ME- to spend a extra $400-$500 to "FIX"(convert back to the way it was originally built,gas port problems,grind and polish to make the bolt work as it should from the factory,etc. etc.) a NEW gun that is already overpriced. Not to mention taking a chance on getting one with a weak carrier or one where the importer molest them to make them "work" to avoid warranty issues and no replacement parts available. If they were sold as they are now but called "KITS" and priced around $30 then MAYBE it would be worth it. I would still be taking a chance on getting one with weak parts and no replacements available. For me.....I'll pass.

It may be worth it to you folks and that is all that really matters isn't it ?

I would like to thank everyone here for the great forum and sharing their knowledge and helping me decide.

 

I guess I was hoping the Saiga would be built like my old Colt AR-15. I paid $275 for it brand new,Have shot well over 50,000 rounds with not a single FTF or FTE.....EVER. It still works as good as the day I bought it.The ONLY mod to it has been to add a scope.

I guess the imports don't believe in quality or quality control. As long as people keep buying them like that then they will see no need to improve.

You come to a Saiga forum, and then you bash the weapon.

Nice 2nd post

No "Bashing" at all. Just repeating what is posted here on the forum. Maybe you haven't read about the problems I listed?

I wish there was a quality made semi with mag available that was priced for the average guy. Maybe the rules will change soon and they won't have to screw up a S-12 just so they can import it.

 

Come on man, really? My S12 is the 2011 production year, and was almost the same price as a new Glock. It seems most of the problems came in the older models. What's stopping you from checking the gas ports before you buy?Mine shot low brass right out of the box. Sure, I spent some money to add all the bells, and whistles, but you don't have to go all out to convert it.

[tialloydragon 1]

If all the time I have spent on the internet has taught me anything, it is that people will spend more time complaining about issues than they do professing that things work correctly.

 

My S12 worked fine out of the box, and I 'fixed' it anyway.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

You talk about them not being for you. But you've never dumped 20 rounds of buck shot in 4 seconds. One drum dump and your hooked like crack.

[TheDeacon 168]

Wow...Just wow!

 

Had the OP made a similar statement in some of the Glock or AR forums I have been to he would have been flamed, cursed, belittled, called a limp wristed so and so, troll... and such, then banhammered into the outer darkness. Here, the majority simply say well, it may not be for you then. Or "yeah, I had similar doubts in the beginning too" or "hey, it's all good. I'll take the one you don't want" .

 

I like this place. And there seem to be a whole lot of good folk here. And a lot of support.

[csspecs 1,987]

Well I guess if you think this relationship is not going to work out.. I'll give you my personal blessing to see other shotguns.

 

 

Just to let ya know. I have an '06 IZ-109 that has yet to have a malfunction.

[sickness 89]

Come on man, really? My S12 is the 2011 production year, and was almost the same price as a new Glock. It seems most of the problems came in the older models. What's stopping you from checking the gas ports before you buy?Mine shot low brass right out of the box. Sure, I spent some money to add all the bells, and whistles, but you don't have to go all out to convert it.

 

Yep. My '09 was tip top out of the box as well. After reading the forum for awhile, I was basically PLANNING on getting a problem gun and needing to get it fixed up. Imagine my surprise when I fed it 100 rds of buck and slugs with no problem, and decided to try the cheap stuff - only to have to have it work great! Even Winchester bulk pack works "well enough" .. I do get an occasional FTE with that stuff, but nothing to really complain about. Never had a problem with Federal target loads. Not that I really care, because this is a combat shotgun.. I bought it for buck and slugs. Light loads are just for cheap fun.

 

This whole thing comes down to the mindset of the buyer, really. Some guys just don't like the idea of tinkering with their guns. Others have a driving need to modify the shit out of everything they own.

 

I'm in the later camp.. a good buddy of mine is the exact opposite. When I took a dremel and a grinding wheel to my S12's bolt and carrier - he was practically sweating and shaking like a leaf. Me? Ok, not quite fearless.. but full steam ahead nonetheless.