MD Arms Double Stack Mag Patent

[Sean Stumpf 1]

. Accident post. Theres no delete button :/

Edited January 10, 2015 by Sean@Kdoske

[pedal2alloy 206]

Hello. My name is Sean and I work with Kdoske. It's not vaporware.

 

We will start accepting orders for this mag soon. I'll leave it at that since I'm not trying to hijack an MD Arms Thread.

 

Also, please know that we are working with administrators to create our Business account and have been since June of last year. We are currently still waiting on a reply. When and if they create our business thread we will begin giving updates there. Until they respond I'm afraid there is not much we can say because of forum rules.

 

Thanks for your post.  Sorry to wrongly accuse it of being vaporware.  (Although it IS until it is actually seen in person )

 

Wondering about your company, such as where is it located and what else you have produced?

[Azkamidaka 26]

VERY interesting developments.

[montec 164]

I'm waiting on the double stacks so I can increase my capacity beyond my 5rd mags and my 20rd drum.  

 

I'm patiently waiting for these since I was way late to the game on the drum.

[heisman01 4]

Its always good to have new options for mags, but 2 companies making a similar product is even better!

 

@ MD if you want any other testers I'm right down I75 in cincy

[Maknwar 33]

MD, I'm closer than that. I'll test for you.

[montec 164]

I'm in the subzero world of North Dakota lets test the mags in this cold temps.  And where are these things. and who else is making a double stack,

[saltydecimator 482]

Robble robble Robble Robble us natives are growing restless

[JDeko 792]

I'm in Michigan.

 

I can test them in... Michigan ways?

[_Boris_ 63]

I was looking for alternative S12 mags and I'm shocked that none are available yet.

 

 

 

Getting a patent can be for stopping others from building i.e. promag/surefire,

patents can be circumvented, by changing the design enough that it doesn't violate the original patent. or if the patent holder fails to pay a "maintenance fee" during the patent period (20 years), then the patent isn't protected any longer. or the patent holder "sells" the patent to another company, for a share per unit ETC...., but still retains the rights.


I know that PRO-MAG didn't wait no 20 years for MDA patent to run out, to make S12 drums. so either the design is different, or MDA didn't keep paying the "maintenance fee" or they sold the rights to PRO-MAG to make them

 

 

 

Actually the easiest way to circumvent a patent is to bust it with prior-art that was publicly available before filing date. I realize that US isn't big on rimmed rounds, but out East there is a wealth of experience on dealing with 303 and most importantly 54r. I sincerely doubt that something "novel and non-obvious" is coming out now, that's not publicly available from Soviet archives. 54r has been around for over 100 years. There is a mag capacity limit in Russia, so don't expect double stacks coming from there, which doesn't rule out the possibility of the designs floating around.

[storm6490 2,768]

For the love of all that is Saiga, please produce a reliable magazine. The market is shit and new saigas aren't coming in now, I know. I would be glad to pay 200 bucks just to have one that works.

[JDeko 792]

I'd be tempted to pay a pretty penny as long as its 030 compatible out of the box.

[saltydecimator 482]

For the love of all that is Saiga, please produce a reliable magazine. The market is shit and new saigas aren't coming in now, I know. I would be glad to pay 200 bucks just to have one that works.

Just not coming in assembled. Hopefully we see them built up with an American receiver soon. Just hope they don't price it out into the stratosphere because it's "American made"!!!!

 

As far as double stacks, I'm still horny for em. Gettin a little annoyed with lack of any info. Sure it's a long drawn out cluster f process, but I'd still like to know SOMETHING

[nukeme70 7]

Has anyone heard any more information about a potential release date?

[csspecs 1,987]

Not to sound like a troll... But Early Fall 2014 was the last posted release time. Before that it was supposed to be late 2009. 

It has been six years since announcement.

 

 

I have zero inside information on what MD arms does..

I have a theory on the whys and hows.. But basically I think one sample works, then they make another and it does not. Or it takes a lot of tuning to keep it working.

 

Everyone that ever worked on product development has a product that could not be debugged.. I have more than a few myself that never made it past prototype.

Sometimes you just can't make a repeatable item, it can drive you insane, as success seems just one adjustment away for months on end. Each adjustment takes days or weeks and can cause another problem that requires another adjustment.

 

Tomorrow he could have the solution and be shipping product inside of a month... Or he could die an old man without ever solving the problem.

The lack of updates suggests that the solution is still not found.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

^Combine that with the import ban and the future looks bleak!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I thought the first alleged release date was "late 2011", but the memory can be foggy after just a few years have passed.

 

To add to what CSSpecs said, the manufacturing process for plastics, polymers, etc. can be fickle and add problems of its own to the product.

[Fumes 84]

An update from mike would be nice regardless of the outcome. Just to keep everyone in the loop instead of guessing.

[JDeko 792]

How do we know its still even being worked on?

[Vance665 225]

I think a MD mini drum or a Vepr only mag would be more likely at this point. Actually nothing is more likely but I guess MD arms still has a website and sells drums so there might be hope.

[montec 164]

Update? It's been years since the rumor started. We are still waiting. However with no new imports I feel we maybe waiting even more so.

[pedal2alloy 206]

Most likely, the issue is that it doesn't work.

 

Too hard to get the double column to sort itself into single.  Too much friction, it's a logjam.

[HB of CJ 1,263]

Did we tell the Japanese or Nazis how the B29 super bomber was coming along?  The most expensive military project of the war.  The bomb was second.  Now we know the Super Fort almost got canceled due to many major tech problems, particularly the shitty Wright 3350 engines.

 

But ... in an alternate reality, the Allison airplane engine company came to the rescue with the Allison twin V12 3420 liquid cooled monster of 3000, then 3600, then late in the war the 4000 hp Japan Blaster.  Turned the B29 into something every Japanese feared and hated for sure.

 

Also the Commies later.

 

My feeble point here and the reason I posted this is that if you ever need a $free$ volunteer to test the aforementioned double stack mags in a pouring wet Monsoon rainfall environment like SW OR in the wintertime, I am you guy.  You just supply the shells and mags.  Hee hee.

 

epic off point non relevant post.

[JDeko 792]

I'd by a prototype for a reduced price to test it

[csspecs 1,987]

Don't get your hopes up.. Prototypes are normally super expensive. Most low run poly injected molded or high end 3d printings would cost in excess of $5000 for a completed sample magazine. Maybe more depending on what size of machine makes the sample.

 

My own test samples are stupidly expensive, the sample Saiga-12 magazines we made cost well over $500 each just in processing, and it is that cheap because we own the presses used for testing.

[saltydecimator 482]

So ya say $500 but what does that actually mean? Can ya break it down a bit more for the curious

[csspecs 1,987]

Back when we did the testing on the Saiga-12 mags before the first batch, we made 10 magazines.

 

It cost roughly $5000 total to cut, form, weld and finish 10 magazines.. Each part had to be milled or hand filed to bring it within tolerance. The metal had to be sourced from the same mill that the parts would be made from, so that the spring back could be calculated.. Everything gets small load charges, parts that cost $2 take a day to make from $15 chunks of sample sheet.. We started with 20 only 10 came close enough to the standard to be finished.

 

Tooling costs a LOT, but unlike the sample mags, it actually fits into the day to day production rather than just getting tossed once testing is done..

 

My tooling is rated for something like 10,000 magazines.. However we aim to be paid off by batch four, as it is hard to estimate actual sales.

[gunfun 3,931]

After I get the next job (hopefully in the next few weeks) I plan to help you get to that next batch. I'd still like a set of 10 round mags. I'll buy a DS mag from mike someday too, I hope.

[Goose 95]

Back when we did the testing on the Saiga-12 mags before the first batch, we made 10 magazines.

 

It cost roughly $5000 total to cut, form, weld and finish 10 magazines.. Each part had to be milled or hand filed to bring it within tolerance. The metal had to be sourced from the same mill that the parts would be made from, so that the spring back could be calculated.. Everything gets small load charges, parts that cost $2 take a day to make from $15 chunks of sample sheet.. We started with 20 only 10 came close enough to the standard to be finished.

 

Tooling costs a LOT, but unlike the sample mags, it actually fits into the day to day production rather than just getting tossed once testing is done..

 

My tooling is rated for something like 10,000 magazines.. However we aim to be paid off by batch four, as it is hard to estimate actual sales.

Not to mention the cost of the man hours for all the employees involved in the project. Smaller shops would have less people that could work on that, AND have enough man power left to actually turn a profit with all the actual work that can be done for paying customers. R&D stuff can be like investing in the stock market: the more you invest, the more you can potentially earn. But if the product you're trying to make doesn't sell, you've spent a ton-o-money that can't me made back right away. I am eager for the double stack mags too, but I can understand why they are taking so long to be ready to sell.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Back when we did the testing on the Saiga-12 mags before the first batch, we made 10 magazines.

 

It cost roughly $5000 total to cut, form, weld and finish 10 magazines.. Each part had to be milled or hand filed to bring it within tolerance. The metal had to be sourced from the same mill that the parts would be made from, so that the spring back could be calculated.. Everything gets small load charges, parts that cost $2 take a day to make from $15 chunks of sample sheet.. We started with 20 only 10 came close enough to the standard to be finished.

 

Tooling costs a LOT, but unlike the sample mags, it actually fits into the day to day production rather than just getting tossed once testing is done..

 

My tooling is rated for something like 10,000 magazines.. However we aim to be paid off by batch four, as it is hard to estimate actual sales.

Amazing! We really appreciate the time spent, money, and risk involved in what you did to make those mags. Very cool, Thanks!